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Nonprofit Hub Radio
Whether starting a nonprofit or taking an existing cause to the next level, The Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast is about breaking down how nonprofits can grow. Each episode features an interview with a sector star with insight, stories, or ideas that can take your nonprofit from good to excellence. Join host Meghan Speer every week to make your good go further!
Nonprofit Hub Radio
Balancing Passion and Prevention: Effective Strategies for Nonprofit Leadership
Craig Dennison, founder of Green Thumb Consulting, joins Meghan Speer to share his unique journey from musician to nonprofit leader, offering insights that resonate with anyone looking to balance passion and responsibility. Discover how Craig manages multiple roles within an organization without succumbing to burnout, especially during the demanding Q4 season. We explore the art of staying energized and focused, ensuring your nonprofit not only survives but thrives as we approach year-end giving—a critical time for many organizations.
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Speaker 2:Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub Podcast. I'm your host, megan Spear, and I am so excited to be joined by my friend today. Craig Dennison is the founder of Green Thumb Consulting and we're so excited to have his leadership and wisdom on the podcast today to set us all up for success in the next year. So I know, as you're listening to this, we're kind of in the midst of Q4. Everybody is in the midst of getting ready for giving season and year-end giving and all that that entails. But there is life beyond it. Q1 of next year is coming and so, craig, welcome to the podcast, so excited to have you here to share how we can make sure that we're starting that year on a solid footing.
Speaker 3:And thanks for having me. This is going to be so fun to talk about, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 3:It's like one of the hardest. It's like a really hard job, be it like maybe the hardest season in a really hard job, because there's so many things that fall on top of each other. It's like there's vision needed in addition to like. It's a game time, typically for donations and revenue, and the team's looking to you and there's like so many components, and so it's like such a high impact time. But also I think it's like why such an opportunity for burnout and so really excited to like, dive in and any ways I can help today I'm really excited to get to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's gonna be great To start us off, though, give the audience a little bit of background about yourself and kind of your journey in nonprofit, because you, more than most people I know, have worn all the hats at this point, so you can very much relate to our audience in that regard. But give us a little bit about your background.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so my best plan for myself was being a guitar player in like a dark corner of a stage somewhere and I was working hard at that plan. I was in, got signed to a contract like a Christian music producer and we were doing the whole like that thing. And then it just wasn't fulfilled by that after a while and so left that, went back to school and when I graduated I picked up a bunch of like media and marketing skills in the band because someone had to kind of run the business of the band. I didn't realize when we started a band we're starting a business, but that is absolutely what we're doing. And so my dad had a longtime pastor of some really large churches in Texas and Atlanta and had started a nonprofit that was focused kind of around Christian content, specifically with like news and faith and like how do we reconcile what's happening in our world from a Christian perspective, called the Denison Forum. And so during the week I was leading worship, on the weekend with my wife Rachel and then during the week was helping my dad that had started this venture with media marketing stuff. And so I started off just serving him in that resource as it was growing, primarily email-based and then kind of building an economic engine there. And then I started a resource inside that organization that's a daily devotional called First of Teen. Spending time with God was really transformative for me personally and just felt like that was something that was an opportunity for us to do. So started that kind of became like a product creator or content creator in that space, and then the way to grow it was marketing and then was strategy and then was leadership in building an economic engine and ended up in the CEO seat. For at that point the organization was kind of like a bigger Christian media organization with a lot of different brands underneath it.
Speaker 3:And then I was a CEO for a few years and we did a big growth wave and revenue and donors and team and audience and it was a really fun three-year sprint. I worked myself out of my job and I was trying to be the best CEO for that organization that I could be and all I wanted to do was break it apart and put it back together again, and that was the wrong thing to do, and so I was feeling bored when I should have felt satisfied and peaceful, and so I finally realized like I think I can do everything I'm doing right now without taking a paycheck here. So I just kind of raised my hand towards the end of that year and said I think I don't need to be CEO anymore. I think the executive team can run this thing. I think I can still do fundraising and content and whatever without taking a paycheck.
Speaker 3:I had started doing pro bono consulting at that point in time just because I loved helping other organizations figure out their growth model and yeah, so left that kind of transitioned out across a year, picked up some clients from like Pat Lynch and the Table Group helping them with some marketing and strategy stuff, to some non-profits to a Cold Plunge client or an event production client, helping people across for-profit and non-profit from a team standpoint, a strategy standpoint and a marketing standpoint, kind of get a scalable growth engine to what they're doing to hit their unique potential, whatever that is. So we've been doing that the last couple of years through Green Dump Consulting some other things and loved now getting to be a resource to owner-operators, whether they're a nonprofit or for-profit, helping them. They all have this amazing vision. How do you get them to fulfill what that vision is?
Speaker 2:That's great. Yeah, I have watched a lot of that journey, so I'm excited to see that flourishing for you outside of the nonprofit itself, but just in general, so excited to share that wisdom. As we sit here today. We're recording, obviously a couple weeks in advance, but it is October 1st. It is officially the beginning of Q4. It is the beginning of nonprofit Super Bowl season, if you will, because we all know that year-end giving push We've got. Giving Tuesday We've got year-end We've got all of the things. I know.
Speaker 2:I have talked to organizations who literally make 75% of their annual revenue this quarter. Right, those are big, game-changing kind of things and big goals and sometimes it can be easy to lose sight of the fact that Q1 is eventually showing up. So I want to dig in today to talk about avoiding burnout in Q4 and about how, especially as leaders, what we can do to set up our teams for success here, so that we're still accomplishing the goal and we're still making it happen, but at the same time we're playing the long game, if you will. So if you are talking to an executive director of XYZ nonprofit who's sitting here today as we gear up for Q4, by the time this airs we'll still have two months of it left. What is your number one piece of advice for them to consider as they get ready to lead their team well through this season?
Speaker 3:yeah, I think the number one piece of advice is you have to pick what matters most, because all the things matter. If we're not careful, we'll end up doing the thing that is loudest or feels like it matters most to other people. The main thing for us as leaders is to figure out, like what can we uniquely do in this season and for the organization? And then like how can we pull down on providing that unique value to the organization? It's something I think a lot of leaders lose sight of vision and leadership in the midst of all of it, because they know that there's some levers they can pull to bring in revenue and often that levers that feel like only they can pull them and they know how much it matters and they're staring that big goal in the face how much revenue has to come in across the next couple of months and will this thing even exist if it doesn't? And the midst of all of that, I think like the main tip I would have is honestly to compartmentalize, like I think it's. I literally would like walk in and out of meetings and I would pretend like I was putting on different hats, but to not lose and forget the hat of like crafting and creating vision for the organization that you're leading, and specifically like having a really clear picture of that vision.
Speaker 3:Because January 1st rolls around and by the nature of that, whether we like it or not, like that's when donors, partners, teams, starts looking to see, like, what are we doing next? And what's really hard about that is we just often wrapped up like the busiest season and it's like I'm just trying not to like pass out from running so hard. What do you mean? What's next? Like I don't know. I'm glad we made it.
Speaker 3:And so something I used to try to do in that season when the team was looking to me for vision and direction, I always felt like I had to be like two or three weeks ahead of, batch as much of your work as possible to not lose sight of like crafting vision, like taking time to think and plan. Imagine, assume things go well, believe they're going to, and then like what would be your answer to those questions and Eddie had a really clear answer to that before Christmas rolls around, so you can kind of just let it marinate and then January 1st hits and you're able to drive this thing forward across those layers of your audiences, whether it's the team primarily or it's partners, or donors, or whatever it may be. So I think that's my number one tip Figure out what uniquely you provide the organization. Try to double down on that, because I think leaders need to provide vision.
Speaker 2:Don't lose sight of really calendaring out time to develop that I love that because I think it's the tyranny of the urgent right. If I'm gonna focus on the thing that's on fire and once that's not on fire, then we'll see what's left but making time for it intentionally, I think, is a really strong start when it comes to the folks who report to us as leaders. Right, because it's one thing for us, because that vision is going to come from the leader itself. That's got to be driven only by you. But you have at least a couple of people, maybe one or two, sometimes a whole team of people or a whole organization. If you're the CEO underneath you, how do we make sure that the folks underneath us aren't burning out in this season also?
Speaker 3:oh man, 100, yeah, a. I think having trickle-down meetings is really important. So the ability to have like like I wouldn't craft the vision just yourself. Like, if you have the ability, you have semi-executive team around you, like do an off-site, like early december, before it's like truly, truly game time and holidays and all that stuff, come ready to craft that vision with them and a plan on how to communicate that. So that's like fairly set prior to and then, in order to make sure other people aren't burning out around you in the midst of all of that. But like you're really doing this as a team.
Speaker 3:I think it's really key to find time to celebrate things through the process, as opposed to like just get stuff done, like like find times to have wins. I actually think like how we show up as leaders into the organization and like how frantic we are has a lot to do with the tone we set for other people and how frantic they are, and as leaders, I think sometimes we feel that we can take on being frantic or having more responsibility ourselves to save the team around us from being frantic. I found that to be the exact opposite. The team needs, based on your actions, not just your words, actually primarily your actions, like the freedom and an invitation to say like we don't have to rush around, everything doesn't have to get responded to every second. We can, like have rhythms and compartmentalize some of this work and go at it in waves and like really not go at this with the feeling of everything being on fire and urgent.
Speaker 3:And if we can show up to even this busy season as leaders, modeling that and even saying like hey, I think we got stuff done, let's unplug an hour early.
Speaker 3:Or hey, I think we can cancel this meeting today because I know everyone's got a ton of stuff running and I'd appreciate the hour to get this thing done.
Speaker 3:And so let's take the next hour and just knock out two things on your plate, like if you can model awareness for the season that you're in but that you're not frantic, you're actually taking time off around holidays, like you're not losing sight of, like family and friendships and yourself, especially if you can have some vision days and I'm going to think through what next year looks like. That itself is a good communication to the team because it tells them hey, we're not just living and dying by the next two months, we're already looking forward and planning on, like what are we going to be doing next year, and that itself can give some higher elevation, context and a bit of peace to the people that you work with. Don't fall into the trap of being too frantic. Even if you feel frantic like on the inside, like how can you show up with a posture of like everything's gonna be okay? We don't have to respond to everything as urgently as it feels.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was part of a LinkedIn conversation thread just today actually that was talking about one of the biggest mistakes that they see in Q1 that leaders make is that they forgot all about their messaging from Q4.
Speaker 2:Right, so, even if you want to buy yourself a little more time, it's easy to say these are the things that we focused on in terms of our asks for Q4. Here's our year end message let's spend the first two or three weeks of the year telling people about the impact of those things. Let's spend the first two or three weeks of the year telling people about the impact of those things. Right, you don't, even if, maybe, if you're in a position where, as Craig said, segmenting out some of that time or you know, maybe that's just not an option with your team, however it is, there is a little bit of window that you can buy ourselves, if we remember that the messaging matters in Q1 that you gave in Q4. So I'm curious to see what your take would be on that, if you would agree with this conversation that was hanging out in the LinkedIn comment threads or if maybe that's not as high of a priority. What do you think?
Speaker 3:I think one of the main ways I coach for-profit or nonprofit, like coach leaders, especially as we dip more into like the marketing side is really like you should say a third of the amount of things that you're saying, say them like seven times more often and you should give yourself like three times the amount of time to say them before people start really like understanding. One of the big temptations, I think, because we live and breathe this stuff every day is that January 1st hits and it's like I got to have something brand new. This thing's got to be like next level and bright and shiny. And the donors that can be really a turnoff for team and donors who are like we just invested a lot of time or money or both or whatever in this communication. That was like why the organization matters and what we need to accomplish. That was like why the organization matters and what you need to accomplish. And I honestly think like the best thing that team and donors can hear in January is really closely related to what they heard in December and it's less hey, make this thing happen. And it's really just hey, the same thing's going to happen that I said I wanted to happen in December. Now we, just because of your generosity over your time or talent or treasure, are in this space to where we can actually do it. So thank you for making that possible to hear the same things that you're going to do again it's not new things and that actually provides some sense of connection between those communications and that. One thing by itself. If you can create a narrative, especially for donors, especially major donors, where it's not a new shiny thing all the time, but like what you gave towards is what we're devoting our time and energy towards now, that is such a breath of fresh air for them. And that flow especially, you get year after year of that where they get used to that, the trust that builds, and the less time you have to spend with those people, the more they'll invest in the organization.
Speaker 3:After our third year we had some donors just sending us checks that we didn't ask for. They had already given a big investment that year and just a year in roll around they had a good year. They're like where are we gonna? Well, we're trying to find somewhere good to give. It's like well, we know this organization is accomplishing, we know what they're doing, we know they're gonna keep doing it, so we might as well write another, because we know what the checks go towards and they're not worried that that's going to get lost in the shuffle. I think a huge hack is like it can save a lot of time and energy and actually get a lot more alignment and a lot more results by trying to do less. That's new and communicating the same thing multiple times, not expecting people to get it the first time and in January, like it not being the new shiny thing, but it really is. Thank you, and we're going to do what we said we were going to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's so important because the vision is the vision, right. We don't have to reinvent the wheel every year. And I don't know why we all put that on ourselves, especially in that CEO, executive director kind of seat. It's like the new year's coming, I have to come in with this Woohoo, and that's just one pressure that we can take off. I don't know why we do that to ourselves.
Speaker 3:A hundred percent. I think we assume sometimes, like as leaders of something, that the unique thing that we provide is inventing the new thing to do, and actually, I think the thing that people need for us the most is just clarity of what is happening. That matters most, even if it's the same thing they heard before matters most, even if it's the same thing they heard before, and there's a sense of like peace. Oh man, if the team will look at you so grateful that you work with donors, will look at you so grateful If January rolls around, you need to say like, hey, there's actually not a lot new happening. This is what we're about, this is what we're doing. Here's how we're going to implement that this year, like that'll be a deep breath of fresh air that all of those people breathe.
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Speaker 2:Visit donorboxorg and unlock your full fundraising potential today let's take a moment and speak directly to the person who's listening for whom at this point. You know you're a month in, maybe five weeks into Q4 and things are not on track. But either the goal is not on track of where we'd like to be by this point in the year or you know, all of a sudden you realize that Giving Tuesday is just a couple of weeks away and your direct mail is not going to be done in time. Or, whatever the case may be the person who is feeling the pressure because they are not on track for where they want to be in giving season at this particular juncture. Let's talk to them directly about maybe some ways to help manage expectations, especially around your team, or how to lead well when the goal is looking like it's not going to be met.
Speaker 3:Man, 100%, I mean. I think a really valuable way to do that is like organizations when I was leading and then organizations I consult with now like we really encourage them to have a weekly tactical. The weekly tactical rhythm is like a scoreboard for like the major components of the projects that matter right now, and not just being you that says are they on track or not, but like have the core people around you and take time every I love doing this on Mondays like score where are they at and then take the bulk of the agenda to see, like based on whether they're on track or not, like what are we going to do about that this week? And the more that that's a weekly conversation that you can keep on track with, the more that you can make little pivots as things ebb and flow, because you have to like that's a part of any rollout like nothing goes according to plan and you can pivot and still generate some really great results even if there's major components that are missing or that major donor that you thought was going to give ends up not. I like to have the core brain trust that's really making year end happen in the same room, virtually or in person, once a week all scoring together.
Speaker 3:Where are we at with these projects, taking the next hour to say what scoring our set like together? Where are we at with these projects taking the next hour to say, like, what do we do in light of that? And the goal being like debate and decisions, not like nebulous conversation, because oftentimes to get those results, like the thing you need the most is just a clear decision of, like things aren't going according to plan, so this is what we're going to do, and then the faster you make the decision, the more people can at least respond and have the chance of getting results because they can actually implement it. So, yeah, so that's one thing I would say. And then in this season too, it's like I mean, there's a lot of ways to be able to hit year-end goals.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of opportunities. I think something you can really think through, depending on like how the major donor stuff is working, is the more honest you can be with them, the better. If you're really not hitting goals, that's something you should tell your main donors, like you really can communicate that to them. Like, hey, we're struggling, things are off here. If this doesn't come in, here's what's going to happen. That's a lever you should only pull when it's true and honest.
Speaker 2:That feels so scary. Even just listening to you say it, it's like oh gosh.
Speaker 3:I hate it. We had one year I it's like I don't think it was gonna be the first year I was CEO. I was like I think this can be the first year that we're in the red. This is in like the 12 year history of this organization. I'm 31 as like a new CEO and I'm gonna have to like and I remember making a few of those calls and that was such a trust-building moment for me and those donors. There was three calls I made. One of them was a board member. There had been some issues inside of like the reporting across, like the late half of the summer getting into the fall, so we thought that revenue was a different spot than it was. There was some revenue getting double counted. We realized that mid-November. I was like, oh, we are not on track. Our goal needs to be bigger than we thought it was.
Speaker 3:And making some of those phone calls, like I just said, there's no expectation. We're right now course correcting, like if this doesn't come through, here's what we're going to do to do different. But if you want to step up and help the organization in this moment, like you're in a place to be able to do that, we need help. And making those three phone calls was hundreds of thousands of dollars to the organization and actually those became some of my like closest donors that would check in and be like how's it going? They were so grateful.
Speaker 3:I was honest with them the whole next year. They had a sense of ownership with this organization that was different than just getting a year-end mailer or we always set the goals and they're contributing what they usually do. It's not a bad thing to open up the table of responsibility to people that believe in what you do and say, hey, as people that have said, we care about this, this is what needs to happen for this to move forward. It's not you asking for money for you, it's you stewarding this organization as the one that's aware of what it needs and bringing people around the table to make it happen.
Speaker 2:That's so good. I think the important thread that I'm seeing through all of this right whether it's pulling that lever if you have to, but being honest with your team in these conversations and being honest with them about where we are, but also if you're succeeding and doing well, being honest enough to set the tone and be there. The theme that keeps coming back, then is that transparency as a leader right, which is so hard. It's so easy to sit here and say like, yes, you just got to be honest, you got to be transparent, but as a leader, it is so hard to do Oof, that's a hard call out.
Speaker 3:A hundred percent, and it is, I think, the thing that people need from leaders the most Like. People don't need leaders to be the smartest person in the room. They don't need you to be the one that always has the best ideas. They don't need you to be the most gifted communicator or charismatic individual Like. All these things had so many archetypes in my head of what I thought a.
Speaker 2:CEO should be yes, of what a leader is supposed to be, and.
Speaker 3:I was trying to live up to those and then it took too long to realize. And now, through consulting, this is a lot of what we do with companies and organizations is like help leaders realize like what the team actually needs from you is just for you to be a vulnerable human and not let go of the responsibilities that you have, but have vulnerability to that, and then make clear decisions and say like and be vulnerable about those decisions. The decisions that leaders make are hard, otherwise you wouldn't be making them, someone else would, and so they're're multifaceted. There's likely a big set of pros and cons, risks and rewards, and no one can predict the future and you can say that to the people that are around you. Hey, I don't know if this decision is going to 100. Be the right thing with this as the pros and cons list. I think let's choose this set and move forward and make the best of it.
Speaker 3:I started making a rule for myself as a leader. I had to do this as a consultant. A lot People. There's a real temptation for consultants to be the smartest person in the room and the reason they hire you is because you have all the answers For sure.
Speaker 3:And I don't, and no consultant does, and often we don't know your organization, the way that you do, and you have history and context that we don't, and so we have to really lean in through vulnerability a lot, and in doing that, I made a rule for myself. When I show up, I feel that temptation to like have the hard shell. If I lose a client, if I lose a team member, if I lose a donor, if I lose anyone because I was vulnerable, then I will always take that as opposed to the negative results that come from being not vulnerable. And so you have to choose what future you're going to live with, and so I just made a rule for myself to live based on that set of pros and cons and whatever comes from that, and honestly, it's amazing how well that serves.
Speaker 3:It's hurtful at times, especially when you get hurt, to choose to be vulnerable again when people don't respond well to that, but it absolutely, I think, is a massive ingredient for success. One of the main reasons I think that leaders burn out is because they don't feel the freedom to do that, and it's triple hard when you feel like you have to portray something that you're not. Have this outer shell, you can't ask for help. You can't like be honest with where you are. You have to prepare so that you can save face in meeting. You have to prepare to have, and if you get rid of the faces and you can just be who you are, working and moving through these different responsibilities every day, you'll find that even in the busiest seasons you're less prone to burnout.
Speaker 2:Oh man, I love that Outside of the prepping for Q1, man, if the thing that you do in Q4 is just prepare yourself to be more vulnerable and more transparent and more honest with your team in Q1 and make that the new goal oof, that would be a fantastic start to a new year.
Speaker 3:And I had to consult a company that was having to let go. They just kind of swung for the fences and they were going to have to let go like six, seven people and I was walking through the leadership team that had had to do that and honestly, the way we ended up going about that in a way that, like, was honestly so understandable for the people, those are like my least favorite conversations I've ever had to have.
Speaker 3:It's just like let it go there's a financial thing or whatever, and going through that process, what we ended up crafting is like, hey, we hate this, this sucks. I wish this wasn't the case. We swang for the fences, ended up not panning out. If we couldn't go back, obviously knowing what we know, now we'd do it different. But we didn't know, and so we made the best shot. We could think we thought build the best company that we can. That didn't pan out and now we just have to be able to reorganize the company. And this is the decision of how we had to go forward. When you can do that vulnerably, like so many CEOs, don't have that conversation. That way you see all those recordings of those conversations.
Speaker 3:And instead they try to like leverage those to rally people to like we still have a bright future and all these great things it's like. Just be vulnerable Like this sucks. We don't want to do this Right.
Speaker 2:it's terrible. Nobody wants to be in that position.
Speaker 3:I know that ultimately I'm responsible, I own that and so even the hardest conversations, if you have them more vulnerably, it's amazing how that brings people in.
Speaker 2:They actually align more with you and there's a chance for, even in the hardest times, actually people. Your organization has a better shot of making it through. I love that so much Transparency and honesty is the word for 2025. She's creeping up faster than I ever would have anticipated it.
Speaker 3:It would be getting oh man, I'm booking like off sites to help people think through like next year right now.
Speaker 3:That's wild to me how fast things move and oh my gosh, both my kids are in school now and how all those things have been flowed together and all those responsibilities together and like it is, the fall is so fun because like it picks up pace and all that. But it is like every day right now is me in my journal where I like bring down here's what matters today and try to prioritize the list of things I have to cut that I'm like this matters and I'm not doing that today and I can't handle it, yeah bigger and bigger all the time as we speed towards year end, and and that's a hard reality, for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, take some of your own advice to not get caught in the frenzy, in the chaos of it all. That's some good wisdom. As we wrap up, Craig, are there any final thoughts that you have for these nonprofit leaders as we come into Q4, as we gear up for, especially for those Giving Tuesday year end pushes? Any final thoughts for leaders as they finish strong for 2024?
Speaker 3:Yeah, man, great question. I think final thoughts would be like we're fighting for organizations that we consult with. The more personal you can be with people that have a file of donors that are yours, you know. Yeah, more touch points that are more personal. I can't tell you like the amount of gifts that came in because I ran into someone before going to a movie or someone was talking about this over here Like it's not just vision and goals that bring in dollars, it's also relationship. I had a mentor of mine tell me that people give on par with how much time they spent with you. Like, at the end of the day, I think text messages matter, pictures of kids matter, like be a real, equal person to these donors matters, and so that's one thing you can do is sometimes just a text message in the morning and thinking about you, and it has nothing to do with the season you're in and just increasing touch points can really make a difference. So that'd be one thing I would say.
Speaker 3:And then it's really hard to do this when you get busy. In the busy season it's even more important to take time before you plug into the day to get clear yourself on what matters and compartmentalize like day to day, like you don't want. This is a huge thing. You have to take it one day at a time to be able to accomplish and you'll. I think you'll find that if you get clear on what really needs to happen today, you'll find that it's doable and achievable. And if you just stack those good days on top of each other, as opposed to trying to sprint through a good two months, if you can focus instead on sprinting every day to a really good day, those good days stacking on top of each other will get you where you're trying to go and will get the organization where it's trying to go.
Speaker 2:I love it, craig. Thank you Again. My guest today has been Craig Dennison, who's the founder of Green Thumb Consulting. Craig, if somebody wanted to find out more about you or connect with Green Thumb, how do they go about finding you?
Speaker 3:You can just probably follow me on LinkedIn. I'm not active on any other socials. You can just look up Craig Dennison on LinkedIn and follow me and feel free to reach out to me, message me If I can help in any way. I'm happy to jump on a hangout or something and give advice if I can, or whatever. So yeah, if you're listening to this and think I could be helpful in some way, don't hesitate to connect with me and reach out.
Speaker 2:Awesome. I love that. Thank you so much for that willingness to connect, but also for all of your wisdom today. I think it's going to be a great message for all of our nonprofit leaders. Thank you, craig, for joining us today. Thanks for having me, megan. This is fun, my pleasure. This has been another episode of the Nonprofit Hub podcast. I'm your host, megan Spear, and we'll see you next time.