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Nonprofit Hub Radio
Whether starting a nonprofit or taking an existing cause to the next level, The Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast is about breaking down how nonprofits can grow. Each episode features an interview with a sector star with insight, stories, or ideas that can take your nonprofit from good to excellence. Join host Meghan Speer every week to make your good go further!
Nonprofit Hub Radio
Transforming Nonprofit Data: Revolutionizing Efficiency and Ethical Insights with AI Tools
Join us as we explore the challenges nonprofits face with overwhelming data and outdated technology with insights from Erik Tomalis and Kevin Peters! Kevin reveals the story behind Avid's inception, born from his frustrations with traditional data analytics, while Eric shares his excitement about joining a company that has the power to unify disparate data systems. They discuss how Avid's tools provide actionable insights and streamline marketing efforts, setting the stage for enhanced decision-making and strategic operations within the nonprofit world. Tune in to discover how AI tools like Avid can complement human roles, freeing up staff for impactful work and fostering more meaningful donor relationships.
Get free nonprofit professional development resources, connections to cause work peers, and more at https://nonprofithub.org
Non-profit professionals are motivated to make a difference, but the minutia of non-profit operations can get in the way of the meaningful work you set out to do. That's where MonkeyPod comes in. Monkeypod helps non-profits get back to their mission by eliminating busy work. Their all-in-one software includes a CRM, non-profit accounting, email marketing, online fundraising and grant management. Email marketing, online fundraising and grant management. Nonprofit Hub listeners can get 15% off the first year of a MonkeyPod subscription by visiting monkeypodio slash nonprofithub. Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub podcast. I'm your host, megan Spear, joined today by Kevin Peters and Eric Tomales of Avid. So excited to have you guys especially as Avid is really just kind of ramping up and launching and getting the word out there about the company. Super excited to talk with you all today, guys, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much, Megan. How are you?
Speaker 1:Good to see you both. So, kevin, you are Chief Technology Officer. Am I correct on that one?
Speaker 2:That is correct, yep.
Speaker 1:And Eric, you are the Chief Re officer and evangelist, I would assume.
Speaker 3:Oh, of course, Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yes. So, Eric, I know the nonprofit hub audience is super familiar with you. You've spoken at CauseCamp a bunch of times, been on the podcast before. Tell us a little bit about your transition over to Avid and why you're so excited about it.
Speaker 3:Oh, this is great Thanks. Thanks so much for having me again, megan. I absolutely love your audience. I love nonprofit, as I'm a nonprofit nerd at heart, very much value what you guys are doing on a daily basis and, honestly, like you know, I've been on the nonprofit side for so long.
Speaker 3:Most recently, I was with the agency and in technology and one of the things that I've known Kevin for a very long time and when I started learning more about Avid, I found that there is this gap in the nonprofit tech space right Like we're having so many different systems, they're not really talking to one another.
Speaker 3:We're trying to do more personal, different operations, but our data is really not talking to one another, and that's where Avid provides that missing puzzle piece, if you will, and I was just like man. This is incredible. I want to be able to help it and it's. There's not really anything else out there like it in our space and we're very complimentary with every single technology and solution that a non-profit has but to be able to have the ability to look at your data in minutes in like in reporting and operations and everything else, to be able to report up to your leadership or know what the good and the bad and what we should be like double downing on. That's an opportunity and I just can't wait to be a part of it. Kevin is the guru, the guy that created this product. I mean, it's incredible and it's great to be back to friends and partners again.
Speaker 1:That's awesome.
Speaker 2:Well, and Kevin, I know LinkedIn thinks we just became friends today, but we actually have been friends for a very long time. So tell the audience a little bit about your journey. Just kind of ping pong my way up there and, to be blunt, avid was created out of sheer laziness on my part, okay, I mean, if you think about it. So my job leading into this I oversaw data analytics teams, I oversaw development teams, and the things that I hated doing were, for lack of a better term, the dumb work Okay. All the data together. Trying to get of a better term the dumb work Okay. Putting all the data together. Trying to get it into a unified source, trying to see if the data was right. Analysis love analyzing data, but I hate creating presentations, which it's great to know what the answers are, but you've got to be able to tell other people, and so I'd spend half my life making PowerPoint slides. I joked one time that a lot of people leave their kids like great nest egg things behind. My kids will have millions of PowerPoint slides They'll get to divide amongst themselves. It's going to be great.
Speaker 2:But over the years, we ended up building out a series of tools that helped us internally to bring data in, connect to nonprofit sources Like no one wants to connect to nonprofit sources Stitch it together in a way that is useful, analyze the data. And so a little over a year ago, we kind of hit a point where we're like this is actually something people would use Now. At the time it was using a user interface that I had made, so it was ugly as sin, but it worked, and so we brought in a CEO that had been doing this for the years. We brought in a UX firm that would help us make it usable for more than just an analyst and myself, and over the last year we kind of built and rolled out a product that lets us analyze data from multiple sources, from every different gamut of CRM down to email marketing, paid social. It automates the insights, makes it so we can actually find the answers to the questions we're looking for.
Speaker 2:How am I doing? Why is this happening? What should I do next? And then takes it one step further and actually lets people take action. It's nice to know that my revenue is up or my revenue is down. Actually, that's not nice to know if your revenue is down, but it's good to know. But the next question becomes why and what should I do about it? And that's Avid. Lets us deploy the data back out and actually advertise. Do marketing. Do the things you need to do to make the revenue go up, and to the right.
Speaker 1:I love that. So has there been, as you guys have started this process because I will admit I was playing around on the Avid website today and kind of looking at some of the pieces, talk to me about some of the like is there a real use case that you have seen just shine through of like aha? This is the moment. This is why we did it, Because a client was able to say, hey, here's what's happening and take some actionable steps forward. What's been that like aha moment for you so far?
Speaker 2:There are two that come to mind. One was we were working with. It was a small to mid-sized organization, around $5 million, and we're walking them through the charts and there's a lot of data and a lot of charts and graphs and everything. But then we showed them this one page that says pick the segment you care about major donors, mid-level online, whatever and then it exports a PowerPoint with about 40 slides in it An overkill on the information. But his eyes lit up. He goes I spend two days a month making a board presentation. He goes this just did it in a minute, and so the ability to put data into a usable format fast allowed him to do what he does best, which is not make PowerPoint slides for his board, but to actually go for him ask people for money. Yeah, took it to the next step there.
Speaker 3:Well, and your point too, Kevin, I mean you think about it like you mentioned. A phrase I want to like go back to is unifying all these silos, right. Like nonprofit, I mean being in that space. I mean we had 20 different responsibilities for one role, right? How many times other duties is assigned.
Speaker 3:I always heard you know, and it's like you have to be able to do all these things. So you have a board report, you have to put out a fire because you're talking to a volunteer or a staff member or something else happened, and try to pull all these data sets that nothing is talking to one another, putting Avid right on top of it and being able to see those reports and your brand, color and your logo, all that information. And, to your example, if you want 40 slides but you really only need 10, it's better to delete it than to have and have too many than too little, and so it just makes their job a whole lot easier in real time versus that report I just pulled last week. That is old, you know, it's just fascinating, and so I think it's like one of the best employees you can ever have without having an FTE on your staff.
Speaker 1:I love that so good. So what systems would someone plug into Avid? Or where is it getting its data from? I guess?
Speaker 2:We usually start with the CRM. People view CRMs as this is. It's kind of a nebulous. Whatever it can do, let's use it for that. But the reality is a CRM is meant to be a filing cabinet. It's meant just to hold the data and then make it useful for other tools to do something with. For a major donor to analyze it and find their major donors, for an email system to find the individual donors and send them contact information. And so it starts with the CRM and it for lack of better terms makes it useful. It overlays the ability to get insights out of it and then to send that data out to the tools that are actually using.
Speaker 2:And that's where we also connect in email platforms. We connect in form submission tools. We connect in web analytics, paid social advertising because it lets us create a golden record so that we not only know Megan and everything about Megan her name, her email, her phone number. That's easy. You get them to see her and we know Megan's giving history. We also know what emails Megan opens, what websites she visits and what that information does, because that allows us to actually make smart segments, help understand what motivates Megan, not just what did she give to last, and let's talk about that again. Even if they could do that, most can't, let's talk about that again.
Speaker 1:Even if they could do that, most can't. Yeah, I think that's the kicker. So often we have all of this data living in there, but there's no real way to understand it. And I myself and I'm going to put myself in that boat I have all of the data available to me and I find it so overwhelming to try and sort through and comb through that I just like forget it. I don't care, I'm just going to keep doing what I've always been doing, because that's easier, because everything else feels too overwhelming. So it seems like Avidem would be a great kind of intermediary to make me feel not quite so overwhelmed by all the data. Exactly, am I understanding it correctly?
Speaker 2:The goal is that it can simplify the data. Now you can go as deep as you want. We have 500 reports, but when you log in, I'm a firm believer that there's not one most important metric, it's not just revenue. There's 100 metrics that matter. There's maybe two or three that matter today. And so when you log in, what it does is it surfaces three to five insights that say here's things you should know, based upon what's changed since last year, since last month, what's the scale of the change and what's most important to you. You, as the fundraiser, get to say I care about major donors, not necessarily broad base, so show me more information about that, and it surfaces more relevant details. That lets you, as you said, take action and just keep the ball rolling forward one foot at a time.
Speaker 3:What's neat about that is, like what he just said was the idea of having the different staff members at a nonprofit organization can be focused on. Whatever the job description is they're a major gift officer. They can focus their portfolio. Look at the reporting. That direction or direct response all different areas. They can focus their portfolio. Look at the reporting. That direction or direct response all different areas. Or if you're a smaller organization and you don't know what you actually need, it gives you that broad based opportunity. So find out, hey, what is the magic bullet to be able to grow generosity within our organization, rather than just shopping around and saying, hey, that looks really cool. I should go that direction, like actually having data informed decisions to help grow our organization in an efficient manner matters.
Speaker 1:So okay, I'm going to. I'm going to open a can of worms, and I know that this is a soapbox. Eric could get on, and I'm sure Eric or I'm sure Kevin has opinions. So there's a part of me when Kevin lays out this, like we would know Megan, not just for what her name and address are, but here's all the things. We know what motivates her, we know where she's going, we know all these things. There's a part of me as I sit here as the executive director of a small nonprofit, I'm like, oh my gosh, that's awesome, that would be so cool. And then there's part of me that sits here as Megan and goes, yeah, but like I don't know if I want someone to know me quite that much, or I don't know how do I know that they're doing the right things with that data. So not that I want to open the whole can of worms around the ethics and AI and understanding all of those things.
Speaker 1:But, what does it look like for an organization to use that responsibly and what does it look like to make sure that somebody has a good policy in place to use AI?
Speaker 2:data. That way I got you. So I'll give some context. Me as an individual who Chief Technology Officer. I work at a company where the word AI is in the name of it.
Speaker 2:I don't trust AI any further than I could throw. As a result, we incorporate machine learning AI into Avid, but we do it in an anonymized fashion, so no donor data is ever sent to a model. What AI does best. Actually fun fact, AI is terrible at math. Most people don't know that, but if you asked AI what's three plus three, it will write you a Python function to solve that.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:What AI is great at is making things sound human Super weird. But we now rely on artificial intelligence to sound more human. That's interesting. So, with Avid, the way we're utilizing AI is summarizations and simplification of what the charts say. If I see a line chart that has a bunch of dots and graphs, like, what does that mean? And it will give you a. Here's a two-sentence summary of what you're seeing right here.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Now going back to what you're talking about, of knowing a lot about the people Right. This is not taking it beyond a, and I get the creepiness factor of that.
Speaker 1:I mean it's everywhere, so it's not an avid specific problem.
Speaker 2:It's an expectation that our donors have. Yeah, if you log into Amazon, I'm surfaced with things that I'm probably going to buy because it knows me well enough to know my Facebook algorithm, my Instagram algorithm other people's Instagram algorithms are probably very relevant simply because it knows enough about you and surfaces what makes it interesting. That's why you come back. So if a nonprofit knows enough about you to be relevant, then the donor is going to keep coming back. It's not to be creepy, it's not to have the big brother data. It's to present people and help them connect with the mission.
Speaker 3:The thing that we believe, too, here at Avid is it's connection over transactions. Donors aren't just the numbers and the data and everything else to that nature, whereas at the core of it all, to me, ai is it enhances everyone's job description. It's the great equalizer, it's the small. I'm on a board here in Pittsburgh, the Children's Advocacy Center of Butler County. It's less than a $500,000 contribution revenue, but it's going to have them work collaboratively against St Jude, who's raising $2 billion a year. It's the great equalizer in our space if done ethically and responsibly. But also focus on the personal connections, right, like, as Kevin you just said. Like Amazon's doing it, netflix is doing it, all these algorithms are doing it in corporate America, but we should be doing it from donors because, at the end of the day, donors are inherently you're giving, because it's personal to their organization, and I think they'd rather hear from a children's advocacy center rather than the Netflix or the Amazons of this world, right? So I think this is this is going to make our fundraising jobs a lot easier.
Speaker 1:MonkeyPod brings financial and people management together into one platform. Nonprofits can manage their accounting and grants from the same software they use to send emails, collect donations and track donors, instead of using three or four different apps to run your nonprofit. Monkey pod brings all those features together into one single platform, saving you time and money. Nonprofit Hub podcast listeners can get a special 15% off discount on the first year of their MonkeyPod subscription. Learn more by visiting monkeypodio slash nonprofit hub. Is it able to be segmented? So, like, if I am a major gifts officer, that's what I'm going to care about, and when I log in I don't really care to look at the email stats, right? So is it segmented by user to what you care about it?
Speaker 2:it is. You get pick the stats, the segments that you care most about Interesting, with one caveat. I purposely made it so you can't. It's a slider. I care more about this than this 100%. You can't go to zero If a digital fundraiser doesn't care about major donors, but a major donor gives you $50 million, so that's something everyone should know. If your email open rate goes from 30% to zero one day, that's something you should probably know, because you expected something to happen. And so it's not that it totally removes the data, it just makes sure you're only presented with the major shifts If you've said you really don't care about that major shifts if you've said you really don't care about that Interesting.
Speaker 1:So tell me a little bit about what spawned the desire for Avid Kevin. You've had a great career in technology for a very large agency, so what really, outside of your claim to laziness?
Speaker 3:Laziness yes.
Speaker 1:Outside of your claim to laziness, or maybe what are you most excited about that is going on at Avid.
Speaker 2:The reason I really want to invest in this actually goes back to COVID, because what Avid produces is scale. Like Eric, I'm on a board of a local nonprofit, a three to $5 million organization. They do family services, they run the local food pantry, things like that. During COVID I got as a board member, I got more heavily involved and I kind of took over their fundraising. So I wrote their emails, I did their segmentation, I handled all the website stuff. It's like the nitty gritty stuff.
Speaker 2:The reality is this nonprofit could never afford my former employer next after they can never afford an agency outside their ability, and so they're constantly stuck at this one level. Now I was able to volunteer and I was able to help. I obviously bring some industry experience, but COVID helped a lot. But we tripled online giving. When you have someone dedicated and knows what they're doing and has done this for years, the potential is huge. And so if we can bring automation, we can bring the goal is not just to do data analysis and deployment. Ultimately, we want to just be that fundraising all in one Be able to draft the emails, deploy them out to your constant contact, your mail champ and be able to help them get better, and so if we can scale it beyond the 50 clients an agency works with to 5,000 that could afford this kind of product, then the industry gets better. The midsize and even the small can take monumental leaps that they otherwise wouldn't be able to do.
Speaker 1:That's great. And, eric, what excites you most about the work?
Speaker 3:I mean everything Kevin just shared. I mean it matters for all.
Speaker 2:You can't take my answer.
Speaker 3:I'm taking your answer because it's perfect, because, at the end of the day, I mean, what I'm excited about is, like the dashboards it's great. A lot of organizations can do dashboarding and be doing it, but not many can do it in real time. But then exactly what Kevin shared being able to share the results because of the work that was created in the background of 7,000 experiments. So seeing the best practices of what nonprofits are doing, good and bad and being able to say, hey, this is a strategy that you should employ and then actually using, like Kevin said, machine learning and opportunity and AI to be able to actually deploy it for them, like those two catalytic moments not many organizations have the ability to do. Put couple all them together. This is that opportunity for nonprofits to do it at scale. Do it at a reasonable level because you know, 92% of nonprofits are under that $2 million threshold for contribution revenue. That, to Kevin's point, can't afford an agency. But they can employ technology and enhance it and embrace what they're doing to the next level.
Speaker 1:I love that. So one of the things that I think, because it's Kevin's answer.
Speaker 3:I took it just to you know. Yeah, it was, we all heard it.
Speaker 2:He said it better, it was a fantastic rephrasing of Kevin's answer.
Speaker 1:Good job. So I think one of the things that, as I talk to nonprofits, especially some of the smaller ones, one of the things that really tends to be a hang up or like a get in the way, if you will, is the tech stack in general. Right, because we have so many different. Yeah, so many different things. Yeah, I talked to somebody the other day and everyone on this little Zoom right here has been in the industry long enough that they're going to laugh at this answer. I talked to somebody the other day who is getting off of they're in the process of getting off of MPX. I didn't even know there were still people on MPX.
Speaker 2:The old orange leap Yep yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean like still on-prem server, like the old school MPX, and that's like maybe the most outdated of the options, but there are so many old school mentalities around systems. If somebody is maybe you know, this all sounds great, right, but we just still have an Excel spreadsheet that we're trying to work with. Are there pieces that you suggest like, okay, if you're going to get into understanding your data, here are some like the first steps you need to take. You know, is there some? Is it? Or maybe I guess I could say it this way Is there anyone who where it's too soon in their journey for them to look?
Speaker 3:at.
Speaker 1:Avid, or as they're kind of making those evaluations. When does it make sense for somebody to connect with you all?
Speaker 2:I'd put the framing around. You want the ROI to be worth it, and when I say ROI, I don't necessarily mean the cost, I mean the time it's going to take. They're still operating out of an Excel spreadsheet. I mean time it's going to take. If you're still operating out of an Excel spreadsheet, avid's probably. I mean there's a way to upload that, that's great, we can handle that, but Avid's not going to produce insights. If you know every one of your donors' names, okay. So we generally say somewhere around, if you have over 500 donors, there's certain charts and graphs and value that you can get out of it. But don't spend time on trying to employ big fancy systems when, if your goal is to just get a little bit incrementally better this way, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's some of the tools that are going to let you get up there. I mean, if you have out of Excel, get into a CRM. There's plenty that work at that size. If you're still sending emails out of your Outlook, maybe consider MailChimp. Definitely not constant contact, but maybe MailChimp or something like that.
Speaker 3:And the other thing I would suggest, too, is, if you're a small organization and you're in that situation, there are consultants out there that primarily focus on how to build an appropriate tech stack. Who should be your home base? Who should be the add-ons? Honestly, megan, when you started this question, I thought you were going to go a different route of talking about budget. You know, like, hey, we don't want to spend money to. You know, to grow right, like those kinds of mindsets. That's right. But I think we, as nonprofit leaders, need to invest in our systems, invest in our tech, invest in our people, invest in our projects. Look at a three and a five year plan. Be able to see where we can grow, what works, what's working and what isn't. You know, and to Kevin's point, if you've got a great giving page but you're putting it all in Excel, that's not a great opportunity because you're not building off of that.
Speaker 3:You're not doing the automation and the workflows and the response and the sequences and everything else beyond that. So yeah, having some consultants and having some growth there, but not being bashful about investing in your business and treating the not. It's just the phrase. Nonprofit status is just a business term. It's not a way of doing business and we need to be operating like for profits.
Speaker 1:Preach that line again, yikes.
Speaker 2:Actually, I was talking to someone last week and one of their objections was we have a person whose jobs do what Avid does. Now, I don't know their salaries, but I know what Avid's cost is and I definitely know it's less than a salary.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Especially for them. And so you've got to start asking the questions of is there something they could be doing that would be better? Right, this is not meant to replace someone's job although I mean it can do what a lot of that work is but it should free up somebody to do bigger and better.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Your CDO shouldn't. They shouldn't have to search through a CRM to find the next opportunity. They should be given the opportunity.
Speaker 3:They're the only ones that can call that donor With a donor or a volunteer and taking them to that next level, or just writing thank you cards. All those different things matter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. All of those personal touches go at great lengths for sure, and they take a person.
Speaker 2:So like automate the dumb work. Let the personal touches be the emphasis of the fundraising operations.
Speaker 1:I think that's a fantastic point. To back to what we were talking about before. Right, it's like AI is is fantastic at certain things. I think that's a fantastic point to back to what we were talking about before. Right, it's like AI is fantastic at certain things. Ai is not who you want. You don't want to send the chat bot to go talk to your major donor. However, at these types of things, I think that's a great use case to be able to free yourself up to do what you're actually there to do. And I mean, I think that that's a problem that every nonprofit faces is that we get so tied up in the busy work that we don't have time for the things that matter. Speaking from experience on that one, everyone on the phone vigorously nodding their heads.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. Everyone on the phone vigorously nodding their heads.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely so. If somebody wanted to learn more, if they wanted to connect with one of you or learn more about what Avid's doing or check it out, how do we find those resources? How do we do that?
Speaker 3:Please come to our website. We're getting a revamped website. We have a new rebranding, so we're super excited about that. So stay tuned for all of that news. Our website's wwwavidaicom. There's a whole host of different opportunities you can see. You can book a demo to see our system. There's a benchmark report that we can connect your CRM so you can start looking at other organizations and how you stack rank against them. There's a whole host of resources there. We're here as a service to help support you guys, and so we'd love to be able to help.
Speaker 2:As a note, that benchmark is free. It's free, forever free for life. The idea being, if you understand where you stand compared to similars, it tells you at least where you should focus your time and effort to improve. Where are you doing well, where aren't you? From there, it's a good jumping off point, great resource.
Speaker 1:Yeah, eric, talk a little bit more about that. How would somebody go about doing that part?
Speaker 3:So if you go to avidaicom, there's a place there right on our main homepage to say you know, sign up for the benchmark report and, exactly like Kevin said, you can connect your CRM to Avid and be able to see in real time how you look in dashboard mindset to other organizations that are also too, and, like he said, it's free. So if you say, hey, I don't want to do this anymore, you can turn it on and off as you please.
Speaker 2:I've always had an issue, going back years, of benchmark reports, for two main reasons. One, the moment they're published they're out of date.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean it's. I don't want to name names and benchmarks but the next 2024 benchmark will come out in March, maybe April. At that point I don't really care. The other is it's self-reported data. They're saying I made this much money, I had this much of a conversion rate. Avid uses real live feeds from CRMs. We had our year-end benchmark that those 80, 90 organizations that were a part of the benchmark could understand where they stood as of yesterday. Where do I need to move the needle? Where am I not getting my major donor conversions? Where am I not getting my average gift for recurring upgrades? There's 50 plus splits that exist in this benchmark that give you an understanding of where to start.
Speaker 3:And selfishly. We at Avid want to do better for nonprofits. We want to empower our nonprofit organizations to do more. So we want this as a free service. We want as many nonprofits to participate in it so that they can get beyond just the 90. We want thousands of organizations attached to it so that we can actually have better data to be able to see how our organizations stack rank against each other.
Speaker 1:I love that and I love the idea that it gives you a place to focus. That's a really key element. That's awesome. Well, great guys. Thank you so much for sharing. I'm excited for both of you about what Avid is doing and what you all are doing to impact the nonprofit space at in this season, where we we all have spent the last decade, two decades, gathering the data and now we get to actually do something with it, and I think that's so exciting. So I personally, as your friend, I'm excited for both of you as this goes through, but I'm excited about what it does for the space and what it has the ability to do for the nonprofits that we all serve. I think that's so cool.
Speaker 3:And Megan, we feel the same about you. You are doing some great work for Nonprofit Hub and our community. Continue the great work. We huge supporters of you and the work you're doing and we're just we're raving fans.
Speaker 1:Awesome, thank you.
Speaker 3:I'm glad to be your.
Speaker 2:LinkedIn friend.
Speaker 3:Yep, and now you guys are LinkedIn friends.
Speaker 1:We're LinkedIn friends, finally. I know it's very exciting, so good. All right, well again. Kevin Peters, eric Smollis from Avid AI. Thank you guys both for being here. We appreciate that. This has been another episode of the Nonprofit Hub Podcast and we'll see you next time.