Nonprofit Hub Radio
Whether starting a nonprofit or taking an existing cause to the next level, The Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast is about breaking down how nonprofits can grow. Each episode features an interview with a sector star with insight, stories, or ideas that can take your nonprofit from good to excellence. Join host Meghan Speer every week to make your good go further!
Nonprofit Hub Radio
Why Passion Isn't Enough: The Hidden Reality of Nonprofit Leadership
In this episode, Meghan talks with David Rhode, author of Passion Isn't Enough: A Practical Guide for Nonprofit Leaders, about the often overlooked realities of nonprofit leadership. David offers practical, hard-earned insights on everything from board engagement and leadership isolation to managing the everyday chaos of running a small organization. With real talk on setting expectations, evaluating (and even letting go of) board members, and simplifying roles, this conversation is a must-listen for nonprofit leaders juggling multiple hats. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed, under-resourced, or unsure of how to move forward, this episode delivers the validation and actionable advice you need—because passion is just the beginning.
Get free nonprofit professional development resources, connections to cause work peers, and more at https://nonprofithub.org
Drowning in spreadsheets and manual processes. Bonterra Apricot is the smarter, faster way for nonprofits to manage programs, track outcomes and actually show your impact. Find out how at BonterraTechcom slash Nonprofit Hub. Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast. I'm your host, megan Spear, joined today by David Rhoad, who is the author of Passion Isn't Enough, a practical guide for nonprofit leaders. I'm super excited to dig into this. For those of you who have been around Nonprofit Hub for a while, you know that we talk about and I talk about all the time how we have so many leaders and so many founders who are passionate about the thing but might not have had the fundraising training or the business acumen or they haven't had any sort of HR training like all of the pieces. That can be a challenge for leaders, and so I'm so excited to dig into this conversation with David today around exactly that. It's like the book about why Nonprofit Hub exists, so I'm really excited. I think this is going to be a great conversation. David, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Megan, thanks so much and yeah, this is a match made in podcast heaven, so let's go for it.
Speaker 1:I love it. So give us a little introduction and background to yourself, David. How did you get to the point of writing Passion Isn't Enough? What kind of fueled that journey for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm a former nonprofit founder. I founded an organization called Pitching for Baseball and Softball in 2005, led that organization for around 15 years and during that time I spent a lot of time being applauded for my passion. I also met a lot of other leaders along the way and realized that they needed assistance and advice, and then so once I left the organization in 2019, I focused a little bit more on the consulting side and specifically CEO mentoring and coaching, which is where I spend a lot of my time. And you know, the book really sort of encapsulates a lot of the experience that I had in talking to leaders and the fact that they were running into the same kinds of challenges, regardless of geography and part of the sector and even, to a certain degree, budget size, and so the book is really meant to sort of break down the job and give them some practical tools to navigate more confidently and more successfully.
Speaker 1:I love it. That's so good. So I want to start the conversation. Set the stage who is passion isn't enough for. Is it executive director? Is it any leader? Who's the target there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really pictured a few of the folks that I have mentored along the way. I had them sitting on my shoulder to a certain degree as I wrote the book, so I was picturing leaders of organizations. 92% of the nonprofits in the United States have budgets of a million dollars or less, and so they're small shops with a handful of folks and the leader is wearing the expression all the hats, and so it was really for those individuals primarily. But what I've realized the book's been out a little over six months and what I realized is that board members are really benefiting from reading the book. Several organizations have gotten it for their full board as kind of a board education tool, and so that's been really effective as well.
Speaker 1:I love it. As soon as you were talking, I was picturing all of our podcast listeners where we're talking about nonprofits that are under a million dollars, where they're wearing 17 different hats. I can just picture all of them listening to this on their commute or on a walk or at the gym and being like, yeah, me, hi, raising my hand over here Because, yeah, that is the majority of who we serve at Nonprofit Hub, so really excited to dig into this. If you had to say, maybe, what's the? What is the one thing that you see these leaders struggle with the most? Because I think there's a tendency, especially in nonprofit, to assume that you are the only one facing this particular struggle, because we tend to work in kind of isolated spaces. Right, this is my nonprofit and this is what I'm doing.
Speaker 1:It's hard sometimes to realize that other people are having these same struggles and it can feel super isolating. So what would you say is like the one thing that you see everybody struggle with? What's the one piece there? Because I feel like, even if we don't have a solution for it, sometimes it's just nice to know that other people are also struggling with the same thing. There's a little bit of benefit in that solidarity. What does that look like from your perspective?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the struggle bus that's the most crowded is the one involving lack of board engagement or underperforming boards, and you can define it a number of different ways, but that's the most common conversation I find myself in with leaders, and so I talk a lot in the book about the mistakes I made as a leader and the mistakes many of us make when we start organizations is we tend to fall in the friends and family trap with our first board and people are. They feel your passion, they feel your excitement, they want to support you and they say these dreadful words of I'd be happy to join your board. And then we're so flattered we say yes, and then we've done all these things before. We've really explained what the job and the responsibilities are and what the expectations are. So what I focus on in the book is outlining those expectations and a process where you're vetting people around what their time commitment is going to be and what financial commitment is going to look like for your organization, and obviously that can take many shapes and forms, but as long as you are creating a very clear understanding and lots of visibility into what the job will be, then the likelihood that the person joining the organization will be successful and you will have the kind of board you were hoping for increases.
Speaker 2:And then there's also a lot of conversation around how to make your board meetings more effective, because a lot of times we do all the reporting out and this is going on and this is going on. Everybody is either outwardly or inwardly applauding you for all this stuff, but it's not a lot of conversation. There's not a lot of board participation, and so really trying to help the board understand when you want them to participate and telling them in advance we're going to be covering this in a board meeting and I'm going to go around the table and ask for everybody's opinion and then you do it so that everybody gets in the practice of sharing their thoughts in board meetings and creating that more of a dialogue that you want and need and expect from board members. So that's the area where I think people have a lot of commonality and I do think you've tapped into something really critical, megan, which is it is, as described to me a lonely job and, for some obvious reasons, you can't whine and complain about certain challenges to the people that work for you, because that's not appropriate.
Speaker 2:You can't always go to your board in some way shapes or forms, because in many ways they're your boss and there's some vulnerability around that and there's just not a lot of people that understand the challenges that you're facing. So I think it's really critical, and one of the things I highlight in the final chapter of the book is called Advice for New Leaders. And one of the things I highlight in the final chapter of the book is called Advice for New Leaders, and one of the things is to sort of begin to form your own cohort, even if it's two or three people that you can go have a coffee with or a drink with after work, or virtual this or virtual that, where you can just, on a monthly basis, talk to people and just talk it through. And you'll find that I think there's real benefit in having that kind of a network.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree. I even love we do a webinar series on Wednesdays here at Nonprofit Hub, and I love when people first jump on because we ask them to share who they are, what organization they're with and where they're chatting from. And inevitably every time you will see people connect around oh, I also run development for a library, or oh, I'm also in Lincoln, nebraska or wherever, and all of a sudden these little pockets of connections start to happen just in the chat thread of the webinar. Because we're craving it as leaders, we need that person or those people that we connect with, who understand what we're doing, because it is a very different ballgame than somebody even just even just say, an executive director of a nonprofit versus a CEO of a of a for profit company. Right, in theory they are very similar jobs, in reality Very, very different, right, and the struggles can. There's, I'm sure, some overlap, but man, just having somebody who gets it is so important.
Speaker 2:That's right. That's right. I mean, we feel like we have the weight of the world on our shoulders, that we've got to come up with all of the answers, that we have to be perfect all the time, and the reality is we're not going to be that person and the sooner, the sooner that you come to grips with it for yourself and take that kind of pressure off yourself and you share it out with your team. Listen, I don't have all the answers. I will help find the answers, but I'm not always going to have the answers and it's a little bit like the X-Files, like the like. The answer is out there, or something like that.
Speaker 2:I don't remember what the tagline was for the show but the answer's out there and in this day and age it's not that difficult to find it. But feeling like you literally have to have the answer for everything is an unrealistic idea. We're not a special wizard, we're not a magic eight ball. We are a person and we're going to do our very best.
Speaker 1:Well, but that requires some vulnerability too, and that can be really hard.
Speaker 2:Right, and I do think one way to build trust and understanding within your organization is to kind of begin to have those conversations with people where you allow them to be vulnerable with you and you allow yourself to be vulnerable with them. If that's part of the culture that I would hope that organizations are trying to create, especially in small shops, where people have to be willing to say I am absolutely willing to take that on. I'm not 100% sure how to do it, but I'll figure it out. Give me a little time or whatever, but just knowing that we're all going to be a little out of our comfort zone from time to time and that's how we grow and, you know, that's how we really make the biggest advances personally and professionally.
Speaker 2:Like writing a book, but when you do things that are new for the first time, you don't know what you don't know and some things come easily, some things are hard, and making sure that we as leaders are asking the right kind of questions Do you need any help? Have you been able to do this or do you need support with that In ways that people can have multiple opportunities, not the one time, like do you have any questions? No, great, and move on. No, it should be the regular thing, like how's this project going? Where are you running into trouble? Is there ways that I can help? Please let me know. And that's what we can help connect them to things, because we might have resources that they're not aware of, and that's great if we can work in that way for our folks.
Speaker 1:I love it. So I want to circle back to something that you said a little bit ago. If someone's listening and they are finding themselves going that was me. My whole board is all people that I'm either related to or went to college with, or my best friend from elementary school, whatever it is, and I have now learned that that is not effective and they're not really helping me move forward. If they're in that position, what do they do next? Help me? Help them? Right. If somebody It'd be great to, in an ideal world, we could maybe start with your book and then start our nonprofit so that we start on the best foot forward. But if that has not been the case and we're starting from a point of, this is a mistake I made and I need to course correct what are the steps that someone would take in that boat?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you know I've I fired a fair number of board members in my, in my career.
Speaker 1:I want you to say that sentence again, because I think that that in and of itself is a thing we don't realize we can do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, firing, board members.
Speaker 2:Yes, they're volunteers and, yes, we have a different level of expectation around volunteers versus staff. But one of the things that helped me the most and I didn't get there right away was creating more accountability amongst the board, evaluating the board on an annual basis and, like I said, that wasn't board 1.0 and that wasn't board 2.0, that was probably board 3.0. But when you get to the point of saying these are the things that we are gonna expect from all the board members and you need to fall hard on the sword. At first I should have done a better job of outlining what was involved and as I've gotten better in my role as a nonprofit leader, I now know what boards need to be doing a better job of. And in some areas we're doing great. We're great here, here and here. Here's where we're not so great and here's where we're definitely not so great. So we need to take our game up together and if it feels like the rules of the game have changed and you don't want to play the game anymore, that's okay. That's okay, you're not letting me down, but this is what the organization is going to need. And you need to give them permission to leave and say we will find people who are capable and comfortable doing those things. I should have told you that this was part of the responsibility and that's on me. Now that it is part of the responsibility, you have the opportunity and we'll talk about this one-on-one whether this is still something you're comfortable with and so having those kinds of open conversations and then at the end of each year, tracking Did they come to X number of board meetings? Did they come and volunteer at whatever? Did they nominate people for the board spot? Did they make a personal gift? Did they introduce you to other people that helped bring in other resources? Whatever the things are that are normal things that you should be tracking. You should be tracking for your board and having one-on-one conversations, not waving them in front of everybody, saying Fred is really just a mess up and Susie I don't know where her head is, and no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:This is done on a one-on-one basis. And saying listen, here's where the answers are. How do you feel about this? And the answer is they're going to say the following because I've had this conversation, they're embarrassed and they're going to feel like they let the organization down. And then you say things like first of all, let's stop right there. You've done so much for the organization and you thank them for all the contributions they have made, and you tell them things like we wouldn't have made it to this point without folks like you and, specifically, these kinds of things that you've done.
Speaker 2:That being said, I know that you're not satisfied with this, and so we have two options here. You can either a say things have changed on my end, I don't have the kind of time I used to have, or I don't have the kind of skills that you're looking for, and I think you might be better served to find somebody else. Perfectly reasonable option. Or B is I want to stay and I want to get back on track, and then my answer would be to that is amazing. Let me figure out how I can help you do that.
Speaker 2:And so they either opt out or opt back in. What's not acceptable is C, which is more of the same. They can't just continue on in the way that they were performing, so they can either exit door number one or they can get back in the game with more help and with more focus. So you know, what tended to happen is if you looked at your board as like an NBA roster, let's say you have a dozen people I was looking to sort of get rid of unintentionally, but the result would be churn out the bottom one or two people each year and come the NBA draft looking for a couple of lottery picks who could I get? That's going to really get my starting lineup and really take me to the next level, and so it's almost an opportunity for the organization to refresh itself and to elevate itself, but it should happen through a professional and thoughtful evaluation process.
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Speaker 1:I was just reading a study the other day about kind of the younger millennials, older Gen Z folks who are super passionate about making the world better. Right, they are certainly balancing their time a lot better than I did early on in my career, and they are we're seeing a rise in them joining boards, which was actually really interesting to me, because I think we tend to think, okay, this is like the room of old white men, right, it's the stereotypical board. So it's exciting to think about the fact that we're starting to see younger folks come on, If someone is jumping onto a board for the first time, talk to that person. What should their mindset be? What's the most important thing for them to bring to the table? Maybe to, because they're going to have a passion point for the organization too, or they wouldn't be joining the board, Right? So what does it look like for them? And what if we had somebody who's newer to the board space? What would your advice be to that person?
Speaker 2:Well, the advice I mean it's a great question. I probably have six answers. So one of the answers is one of the answers is don't sit back. Don't assume that everybody else has it under control and you need to, just because you're the newbie, like sit quietly over there and just bide your time. Now I think the best kind of board is an engaged, involved board, asking questions. So the advice that I would give to people first is don't be afraid to ask questions, because if it's on your mind, it's on somebody else's mind. That whole thought process that's real.
Speaker 2:The second thing is and I think there are realities to generational diversity that are challenging Younger people are more accepting of and comfortable with technology, generally speaking, and younger people generally don't have the same financial means and financial networks as people that are further along in their careers, generally speaking. And so if we have a board dynamic where we have a range of ages represented, I think we do have to be careful about the traditional give-get structure, because if we're saying all the board members are responsible for bringing in 10 grand, that's going to feel like a mountain for some people and that may feel much more achievable by other people, and we need to be mindful of that, and so one of the ways organizations are handling that is really this notion of and we highlight it in the book a little bit too is making sure that if you have a threshold, maybe the threshold is something along the lines of personally meaningful gift to the organization as compared to a specific number, and that I dimensionalize that to my board as one of your top three philanthropic gifts each year. So if that could be $100 for a young person, that could be $500, be whatever, but the point is it may look and feel very different. The last thing I would say because this is a great question is, as a younger professional person, you may have skills and perspectives that the organization needs.
Speaker 2:The organization may not understand, let's say, how it's going to embrace and approach AI, or how successful it is with social media and things that you can maybe be more of a resource for than other folks that have been more experienced and around the organization longer. So don't minimize your ability to make an immediate contribution. But again, ultimately I would lead with questions, nonjudgmental questions, like do we need more help around social media? Do we feel like we've got that under control, or is that an area where you think that I could be of some help, and so being willing to and able to raise your hand is so valuable and really models a great behavior for other board members. To raise your hand is so valuable and really models a great behavior for other board members. So come in, come in with intention and come in with an expectation that you're going to make a difference.
Speaker 1:I love it. So I'm curious, as one who wrote a book myself what is your favorite part of the book? Because I feel like everybody has that one, whether it's a chapter or a section, everybody has that one where like this this is my go-to point. Let me tell you about this what's yours?
Speaker 2:That's so nice that you asked that and I have not been asked that question before. I loved generally the fact that I was able to reconnect with so many people in the nonprofit sector, so I interviewed 22 different subject matter experts and CEOs when I wrote the book and their wisdom is embedded throughout the book. So, generally speaking, that's the part of writing the book that I enjoy the most is reconnecting with those individuals. The chapter that I like the most is really there's really two chapters. I mean I like them all, but it's like your children.
Speaker 2:You love all your children, but do you love them all equally? Come on, let's be honest.
Speaker 2:It depends on which day of the week we're talking about here. So I love the chapter on partnership development. I think that that's just so exciting. There's a lot in there from a good colleague, joe Waters, and Joe is just a dynamo on partnership development. He really goes deep on a lot of stuff and if you can just imagine his deep Boston accent, as you have him speaking in the book, it's even better. So there's that, and then the chapter on crisis communication. Liz Wanger was so helpful in talking about protocols and ways to approach crisis communication and, especially for the moment that we're in as a sector, I think there's so much that we can take from that. So those are chapters that I in the crisis communication, I felt like I learned a tremendous amount. And the partnership development I just enjoyed collaborating with Joe on that.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. So what I'm hearing and I will be vulnerable and honest to say that I have not read this book so, yes, yet I have not read it yet but what I'm here, so we've got board, we've got crisis comms, we've got partnership. We're hitting we really are hitting all of the things in this one. What are the other topics that are included here?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it starts out with building your strategic plan. That's chapter one, that's the roadmap. Chapter two is building your board. Chapter three is building your fundraising strategy. Then we go into building your partnership portfolio, building your financial controls, building your team, building your measurement and evaluation capabilities, building your brand, building your communication strategy, building a diverse team, you know, building your AI competency I'm going to forget something building your program, building your volunteer base. So there's 15 chapters that cover many of the things I just said. And then there's the 16th chapter, which is this advice for new leaders. So it's been exceptionally well-received. I'm so delighted that when people read the book, they tell me things like I have to apologize because I wrote in the margins so much and I underlined and I did it like no, no, no, that's what the book was intended for.
Speaker 2:That's good news, so like. I said, the people are using the book in the way it was intended and really finding value in various things, because it's not a book, that this isn't fiction. You don't need to begin in chapter page one and read to the end. You can get the book and say I'm really struggling, I'm about to hire somebody. Okay, read the chapter. I'm building your team Go right there. And then you can kind of go through wherever you feel like you have the most need at that moment in time.
Speaker 1:That's great. So it really is kind of the how-to guide for all of the pieces of a holistic nonprofit strategy.
Speaker 2:I don't want to pretend that it's the answer, but it is intended to cover a lot of the bases that you're going to face throughout your journey as a leader.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love it and especially understanding that I know we see a lot of, we see a lot of changeover in nonprofit staffing over the summer right, because so many nonprofits have that July 1 to June 30 fiscal. So we see a lot of promotions, a lot of new hires coming in with those July 1 contracts. So, man, this is an ideal time for someone who might be new to a role, new to an organization, to really make sure that they're getting everything on track quickly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean many of us haven't hired that many people, or hired people or know how to write a great job description, and I just saw a LinkedIn post yesterday about job description, had 33 bullet points or something like involved with it, and it's like listen, if you're going to hire somebody, I'm going to just say this for humanity, not just for your purposes, megan, but for anyone For the world at large.
Speaker 2:For the world at large. Please just put three bullet points in. This is the main parts of the job. Everyone knows that jobs are more than that. When you're going to evaluate this person at the end of 6, 9, 12, 18, 24 months, what are the things that you're going to evaluate them based on, then hire them based on those things and like, don't list the 43 other things that they might have to do. Yeah, there's other things, as required or whatever the catchphrase is.
Speaker 2:But come on, let's make it simple. This is really what we need the person to do. We're a small team, so everybody is kind of going to take on more than just what's in their job description. But, like, at least three of the five days of the week, this is the kind of stuff you're going to be doing. And then let's, let's focus on those things and let's talk about those things. And let's, let's talk about those things and let's let's not make it like some something we're creating in a lab that somehow some, some person is going to be creating that some like perfect person. I'm sorry. If they're perfect, they're not coming to your organization for the amount of money that you're going to pay. Then right, so you're going to have a more junior person potentially, and, and you're going to have to train them up and you're going to do a lot of things, but at least tell them this is what the job is. So there, please, world, make it clear, make it simpler.
Speaker 1:Amen, absolutely. I will ask this question, if you can think of one, because we all have the end other duties as required, right, as in all job descriptions, contracts et cetera. What's the craziest thing you've ever had to do? And other duties as required? I'll give you a minute to think of it because I will tell you mine. I one time was required, not required, but we were hosting an event and again it was a non-profit. You're on a small budget and so all of a sudden I found myself having to make 10 dozen little egg muffins to go on, like to go on egg sandwiches for a senior sendoff breakfast, which normally not part of the job description of the communication director. But here we are. Sometimes you just got to make 120 egg muffins.
Speaker 2:And sometimes you got to clean the toilets.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:So I would just say like when you, when you are that person, you have your board showing up and and you're going to and they're coming. For we were baseball and softball charity. We provided equipment to kids and communities in need, and so we had our board come in once a year to help us with our annual inventory count and it was a great way for them to kind of bond together and for them to understand and touch the organization. But when they're coming in, you look around like huh, we need to spruce this up a little bit, like you're the one grabbing the Johnny brush, you're the one doing the things, so there's nothing too big or too small. You're making the muffins, you're doing the things. Yeah, because why wouldn't you? You want it to be a certain way, then lead by example.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. As we close out, david, the question I've been asking everyone this season is if you could give one piece of advice to the nonprofit leader. Maybe it's from your book, maybe it's just something you've been thinking about lately. What is that one takeaway in this season? Because we recognize it is a struggle season for a lot of folks in this current climate. So what's the one takeaway for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, especially given this moment in time, what I would tell people is to not hide from their community and to communicate more. I would tell them I would not make this a desperation of we need your help now and we're it's such an urgent moment. I would just focus on the impact you are having. I would focus on this is who we are. This is how we make a difference in our community, and I would just stand up proudly and just tell that story and say we are going to work through the challenges that are existing right now with it with a positive expectation, and but while we're doing that, let's not forget all of the amazing work that's happening and just talk so proudly about the work you're doing and people. They want to support a winning team, and I think you should present yourself as a winning team in a positive way. So, yes, there are real struggles, but I think our communication should focus on impact and we should focus on communicating more frequently, not less, in times of challenge.
Speaker 1:I love it, so I am generally assuming that everyone who's listening.