Nonprofit Hub Radio
Whether starting a nonprofit or taking an existing cause to the next level, The Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast is about breaking down how nonprofits can grow. Each episode features an interview with a sector star with insight, stories, or ideas that can take your nonprofit from good to excellence. Join host Meghan Speer every week to make your good go further!
Nonprofit Hub Radio
The Nonprofit Marketer's Roadmap
Nonprofit marketing often feels like a juggling act—and according to veteran fundraiser Kiersten Hill, that’s because it is. In this episode, Hill, who’s raised over $20 million for nonprofits, unpacks the core challenge of communicating with multiple stakeholder groups at once—from donors and volunteers to clients, board members, and funders—all requiring unique messaging across different platforms. In this installment of our NonProfit 101 series, Kiersten shares practical strategies for prioritizing audiences, offers a powerful ethical storytelling framework, and reminds marketers that they don’t need to be everywhere online—just where it matters.
Resources mentioned:
Blog Article: How to define your target audience for better marketing results : https://firespring.com/creative-marketing/how-to-define-your-target-audience-for-better-marketing-results/
Downloadable: https://landing.firespring.com/target-audience-guide/page.html
Firespring Marketing Toolkit Downloadable: https://firespring.com/nonprofit-toolkit
Get free nonprofit professional development resources, connections to cause work peers, and more at https://nonprofithub.org
Pledgeit is designed for nonprofit fundraising professionals who need comprehensive event management without the learning curve. Our intuitive platform handles galas, golf tournaments, peer-to-peer fundraising and auctions with built-in automation and progress dashboards no technical expertise required. Visit pledgeitorg slash nonprofit hub to learn more. Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub podcast. I'm your host, megan Spear, and along with me today is Kirsten Hill from Firespring. Firespring is such a huge supporter of Nonprofit Hub, so I'm really excited to have Kirsten on today with so much wisdom to share as part of this Nonprofit 101 series, specifically around nonprofit marketing and how we tell a better story as our nonprofit. So, kirsten, welcome in Well, thank you.
Speaker 2:I am thrilled to be here. It's great to be with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so. For those who may not have met you at CauseCamp or seen you present at conferences across the country, give us a little bit of background for yourself and how maybe you got into nonprofit marketing in the first place.
Speaker 2:Sure. So I actually have spent most of my career in nonprofit management and fundraising. I came to Firespring about four and a half years ago because I was a client of Firespring when I worked for nonprofits. So over the course of my career I have raised about $20 million for nonprofits in Nebraska and now I get to work with nonprofits across the country. I've been an executive director, I've been a development director and I like to be able to bring that really like hands on, practical been there, done that, been in the trenches kind of approach to working with nonprofits specifically related to marketing.
Speaker 1:I love it so good. Well, that's the vein for today. So we are, as you know, in this Nonprofit 101 series. We are breaking down. If someone is new to the nonprofit world, maybe this is their first job just out of college, or they've switched, maybe, from a for-profit to a non-profit endeavor and find themselves in that non-profit marketing role. That's who we're talking to, so we're going to go back to basics today and love it. Um, if that's who we're talking to, my first question for you and I'd love to hear your wisdom on this is if you're walking in the door day one, you've been hired in a nonprofit marketing role. Okay, what are the first questions you should be asking to make sure you're starting on the right?
Speaker 2:foot. Yeah, I would have a list of them.
Speaker 1:First of all.
Speaker 2:I think part of it is understanding the mission of the organization, how you deliver services and how you measure impact, because if you don't know those things then you can't tell the right story to your audience. So I think, really getting a firm grasp on who the organization is, how it operates, how it all works, and from there the next step is who are the audiences that I need to communicate with. I think you and I had kind of emailed back and forth about this, but one of the challenges of nonprofit is that you always have multiple audiences. There's no possible way that you can be a nonprofit marketer and have a single audience. It just doesn't happen, and so that, I think, is challenging, and I don't know that there is much in the undergrad or even in initial careers in marketing that prepares you for how to communicate with multiple audiences.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I think that was my initial statement to you was when I first got into nonprofit marketing myself. That was the hardest switch for me, because everything I had learned in school was find your target audience and market to that. But inevitably in a nonprofit you have donors, you have volunteers, you have the community who might use the services that you offer or the clients who are benefiting from that, and you need to be able to speak to them as well. And juggling that balance, I think, is one of the hardest parts, absolutely. It is such a hard balance. So talk to me a little bit about how you approach that with an organization.
Speaker 2:Sure, well, just in preparing to chat with you today, I just grabbed a sticky note and I said how many audiences does the average nonprofit have?
Speaker 2:And I wrote down eight, and that was then about a 30 second time period. So it wasn't like I was, you know, sitting here for hours contemplating like just off the top of my head. I think that there are always multiple audiences, and so I think what you have to do is spend some time identifying who those audiences are. Then I think you have to figure out what problem it is that you solve for each of those audiences. They're all coming to you specifically needing something different, and so identifying you know how you work with them, how you solve those problems, is going to be really important. And then you have to prioritize. You know who gets the most attention, and unfortunately that means that sometimes you only do a little bit of marketing to some of those audiences. But you have got to find a way to really prioritize which ones are the most important, so that you know where you need to spend your time and what you need to focus on.
Speaker 1:I'm curious. I came up with three just in the course of our conversation with donors, volunteers and the people who use your services. What did I miss?
Speaker 2:So I think general public is one. Okay, now you know there needs to be just kind of a mission-based message here's who we are, here's what we do. You know the really simple, straightforward kind of a public message. Then, donors and clients, which you brought up, volunteers I put the board as their own category because I think that the way that you communicate and what their needs are and what you communicate to the board is different than what you communicate to other audiences Advocates, so people who are going out and talking on your behalf, who are promoting the work that you do, who are helping you to really advocate on behalf of your cause that's another one.
Speaker 2:I put funders as their own category because I think donors I think of individual donors, maybe group donations, those kinds of things, but I think donors, I think of individual donors, maybe group donations, those kinds of things but I think family foundations, private foundations, grant funding, government sources those are all different. The message that you need to have for both of those audiences sometimes will overlap, but not always, and so you want to be aware that they've got different needs. Yes, and then the last one that I have is partners. I think that nonprofits are always partnering, the good ones, the ones who are doing really well and who are, you know, building systems change and those kinds of things have to identify partnerships in their communities, and the way that we approach partners with our message is different as well. So those are the eight that I came up with just off the top of my head. Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:I like it and I like the distinction between funders and donors specifically because even really, if we wanted to get into it, there's different messaging to your major donors versus your sustainers, versus I gave you a gift one time, 10 years ago, right, absolutely. We could break those down even further. So, yeah, the amount of audience is almost infinite at this point.
Speaker 2:It really is, and I think that, again, is so different than any other kind of marketing that is out there, and they all have really distinct needs and distinct problems that we help them to solve. And so, if you just approach it, you know, there's an old adage in marketing I'm sure you've heard of it, but it says if you're marketing to everyone, then your message is reaching no one. Yes, and so we have to be able to figure out how to present these messages in a way that really meets those needs of each audience, so that we're making the most of those connections that we have with them.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So one of the things I think can be a struggle when we're talking about this and understanding the different messages and it's I will put myself in this boat. It is definitely a mistake I made early on in my career Well, I will own that Is this idea that, because the need is so great, all of my messaging has to be like emergency. It's like this over the top emotional plea that sometimes, to be honest, alienates one off audience in favor of another one. So that balance too, but Speak to that, if you will, about how we approach messaging. Sure, because if everything is in a similar attitude, if everything is urgent, nothing is urgent. Right, absolutely, and I feel like we get stuck in that cycle very easily early on in careers.
Speaker 2:Yes, there's a reason why we tell the fable of Chicken Little right? Yes, because if the sky is always falling, then there's no, there's no sense of urgency, because the sky is always falling. And so I think that there is a time and a place to use that approach. But that is not, and should never be, your consistent approach. When we watch television and we see those Sarah McLachlan commercials, you know the arms of an angel commercials.
Speaker 2:They're the only ones I know that that works for you know it. I don't know anyone else who takes that consistent approach and finds it successful. And for so long we've been watching these commercials forever Well, over a decade. Yeah, absolutely. I think now it's like their calling card, right, so they're all in on it. But I think that we have to. You know, we've got to find a way to also approach things from a positive angle.
Speaker 2:Goal and my experience in what I've done with fundraising and what I have helped our clients to do at Firespring is that I think the positive approach, where we show the possibility, we talk about optimism, we talk about hope, we talk about empowering people and changing people's lives and building for the future, I think those messages resonate so much better than the desperation messages and I think that if we can get in a habit where we're really focusing on the positive things, then when we do have that sky is falling message, people will wake up and they hear that message differently, because it's different than maybe the consistent message that we give them.
Speaker 2:And I think that it helps. That positive messaging helps people to relate, it gets people excited and you know when I'm helping clients to write stories or I'm telling stories and I see this a lot, particularly in things like homelessness, substance abuse, domestic violence, those kinds of areas. I try not to focus on the before, because there's often lots of tragic stories and there's trauma and there's lots of emotion and things like that there. But I don't want to dwell there. I want to look at the point of change, that really point where the conflict becomes a change and we go into a resolution and we talk about hope for the future and the way that people's lives are now. I think that those messages are much more motivational because we can provide all different kinds of people with those experiences right, those motivational, optimistic experiences, and I think they just resonate so much better than spending too much time down in the mud.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree. Just if I were starting out, I think one of the things that I'm gonna recommend is is required reading. If you're starting out, I have you read the ethical storytelling report? I have.
Speaker 2:Carly Euler put out yep, I have. I haven't come through it like front to back, but I have. I've like skimmed through it and read parts of it and they are so spot on. I mean, it's really good stuff.
Speaker 1:Speaks exactly to what you just said, because we, I do think something that we should all embrace, and if we can do it from the jump, at the beginning of our careers, even better. Is that, though, when we tell those stories and we don't focus on the change point and the the hope moving forward, it becomes very exploiting of the experiences of those we serve Absolutely, and that man, if we could have a whole generation of new nonprofit leaders coming in this round who didn't start from that exploitation point, man, what a difference we could make in nonprofit storytelling.
Speaker 2:And just do it in a way that feels so much better, and not just feels better for us as marketers, but that feels better for the audience receiving those messages. So my trick this is a trick that I picked up, actually well into my career I was already, you know, had been an executive director a couple of times before I picked up this trick and that is that when I get ready to tell a story, I like to imagine that the people I'm telling the story about are sitting in the room where I'm sharing that story.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so good.
Speaker 2:And yes, if there's anything about the way that I'm going to tell that story, that would change. If I'm telling the story in front of them versus what they're not in the room, then I'm not telling the story. The right way to start with.
Speaker 1:Yes, oh, I love that, yeah, so that's a really great framework to think about it.
Speaker 2:That has helped me and still helps me. I was the executive director for the Big Brothers Big Sisters affiliate in Lincoln and you know, when we talk about littles and their families and family experiences and kind of what brings them into the program, we want to do that in a way that talks about families empowering kids, right? Yes, families helping kids to succeed and to thrive. And if we focus too much on the situation that brings them in the door, then we're doing a huge disservice to their journey and to the really transformational power of mentorship. And so I learned a long time ago that if I think about telling the story in a way that they would be proud of hearing their own story, that's the way I want to tell those stories every time I tell them.
Speaker 1:That's such a good call. I love that framing for it. And that's true even in how we write for social media. It's true in how we write for email. It doesn't have to just be in that verbal presentation because, especially just starting out in your career, you're not likely to be in those rooms quite yet. Right, exactly, yeah, yeah, but in how you do content yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Running it through that framework I think is great. I want to get back to a second and I man, if I was going to add something else to the required reading list, maybe that's what I will do for this series. I'm just going to make a whole resource post for all of these things I love it.
Speaker 1:One of it would be Firespring has a really great post out on defining your audience. Yes, because if we have these eight, that's an overwhelming thing to think about. It is Walk me through maybe from that post, kind of the framework that you guys have outlined for how we actually go about defining, how we deal with each of these audiences.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think part of it is taking a look at you know what does the process look like for defining the audience. You know yes. And then trying to figure out what are the basic characteristics that each of those audiences have. You know what? And again I come back to this what is the problem that we're solving for each of those audiences? And so, and if we're going to talk about required reading, I would be remiss, if I didn't talk about this.
Speaker 2:Building a story brand by Donald Miller is my favorite when it comes to identifying problems and helping to tailor your message to your audience. I think that the steps that we kind of walk through is you know who are the audiences, what are the characteristics of those audiences, and then looking into how can we gather as much information as we possibly can about similar folks in that audience. So what, where are they getting their media? Where are they learning about causes? Where are they? How are they donating? Are they digital donors? Are they responding to direct mail donors? Are they responding to direct mail? You know, helping to kind of figure out, you know what are some really similarities and characteristics that you can share among those audiences will help you.
Speaker 2:The other thing that we remind people of in that post and that I think we forget about a lot is we can sometimes, I think, make pretty good assumptions, but the best way to either prove or disprove an assumption is just to ask people, and I think that we assume a lot of things about donors, we assume a lot of things about volunteers, and if you really want to know, specific to your organization, what your donors and your volunteers and your clients are thinking. The best thing you can do is to survey them and to ask them, and I think that will help you get a lot of that demographic information and you know channels of media and those kinds of things better than anything else that you can put out. There is just to really ask is just to really ask Pledge.
Speaker 1:It is designed for nonprofit fundraising professionals who need comprehensive event management without that learning curve. Our intuitive platform maximizes success for galas, golf outings, peer-to-peer fundraising, auctions and donation forms. Built-in automations recruit previous attendees, while dashboards let you quickly compare fundraising progress to past events. No technical expertise required, just powerful results. Ready to transform your fundraising? Visit PledgeItorg slash non-profit hub to get started today. One of the things that I found to be true is that in a lot of organizations, so much of that information is siloed. Yeah, because the information about our volunteers lives over here, and the information about our donors lives over here, and our clients live over here, and there's just all. Everybody owns their little piece. Yes, so even just being the marketer who goes and makes all of the data come together and gives you a whole big picture is a fantastic piece, but I think the piece that we miss sometimes is that there are overlaps. Yes, I may be a donor and a volunteer.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:I may be a volunteer who also works for a foundation that supports you, right, and so that's how I learned about it, and so I think, too, the overlap is another really specific, unique piece. Yeah, because while we have siloed the data, humans don't live in silos. We are multiple things. Yes, and it's to your point. I think it's interesting sometimes to even ask somebody who's very connected to your organization. They don't, they're not putting those little tags on themselves, no, not at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're not they're not saying I'm a volunteer and a donor to this organization. They're just saying I'm connected. I support this. Yes, exactly, yeah, I support, yeah, yeah. So I think sometimes we get it. So that's what I would say if I was just starting. A marketing role is be the person who brings the data together. Go talk to all of the people and ask those questions yes, absolutely. And then find those people who do crossover.
Speaker 2:You know, I think that was really very clear to me when I worked at the zoo. So I was the director of development for the Lincoln Children's Zoo and I saw that all the time, you know they were donors. They were also sometimes driving the train. They would come help put on our events. They might go out in the hive and, you know, hold slithery creatures for a while, like the people. Yeah, no, thank you. But the people who support zoos and who support, you know, animals and animal conservation, they are crossing over multiple areas. And so it was helpful because you know I could really find our sweet spot for supporters if I found where all of those things crossed over, what were the commonalities that they had. And it made my job as a marketer and a fundraiser a lot easier when I could find, you know, those pockets of people where you know they were really super engaged.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like that call it a lot especially for someone who's just starting out, because what I don't want is for them to listen to this podcast and be like, oh my gosh, this job is so much harder than I thought it is. I'm really overwhelmed right now. Yeah, no, it's a good, good place to start, though, in that data gathering and understanding the audiences, I feel like that's a really good step in the ladder.
Speaker 2:Yes, definitely, and I, yeah. The last thing I want is people to get discouraged.
Speaker 2:I will say honestly, that multiple audience thing is probably what kept me in nonprofit as long as I was. I would honestly get bored, I think. If I just had like I was selling a widget to one you know particular user, I think I'd get really bored because there's only so many ways you can talk about a widget. But you know, being able to identify who each of those pockets of folks are and then tailor that message specifically to them and trying different things and testing different ways to reach them and different messages, that's part, in my opinion, that was always part of the fun of working in nonprofit and working in nonprofit marketing and fundraising is that I always had something new or different or a different way that I could say things or a different audience to connect with, and I think that's part of what makes nonprofit work really enjoyable All right, so I'm going to piggyback off of that and ask this question that I get regularly, okay, anytime.
Speaker 1:I speak about nonprofit marketing, this is one that everyone comes in on. So even with those audiences, audiences there are so many different ways in this point in time to communicate with them, right? So you still got direct mail and email and your website. You've got phone and text and social, and there is a new social platform that jumps out. You know, every six months we're launching something new, which can be overwhelming if you're trying to do all the things, things. Let's final word Do we need to be on all the social platforms as they emerge? No, do we need to overwhelm ourselves with all of those things and jump on the newest train all the time?
Speaker 2:I agree, I give a social media boot camp, which is like a social media 101 and social media 102 sessions, which is like a social media 101 and social media 102 sessions, and one of the things that I say in both of those sessions is just because a platform exists does not mean you have to be there. Yes, now I am a fan of going out and claiming your handle or your username, 100% agree so that that way you can build consistency in username across platforms.
Speaker 2:So, for instance, if you're not on blue sky or threads, I would say, go grab those handles to make sure that they match, or as close as you can possibly get them to your existing handles on other channels, but then you can hold tight.
Speaker 2:Just because you have an account does not mean you have to use it. If your target audience is, you know, gen Z and millennials and folks who are super users of TikTok, then maybe you need to think about being on TikTok. But if that is not your target audience, about being on TikTok. But if that is not your target audience, if that's not where you're going to find success and find your audience, then it really is nothing but a distraction. At that point, just because the platform is there doesn't mean you need to be there, you need to use it. So I think being really diligent and making sure that you're using platforms that match with your audiences and also with your capabilities as a nonprofit you know, if you're a two or three person shop, you absolutely can't be on every platform because you've got, you know, a list of 100 other things you have to do in addition to social media, and so I think it's finding you know again, prioritizing finding the highest and best use of your time, where you can reach the most people with the best message.
Speaker 1:And to bring it full circle as we start to wrap up here, you can best know where to be when you know who those audiences are. Yes, absolutely. So to your point. Yes, maybe your millennial audience is on TikTok right now, or they're on Instagram. You will know where to go when you know who your audience is and let that audience be the driver.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, let that be your guide. And again, it's about prioritizing when you know, in this hierarchy of eight potential audiences, who are my most important of eight potential audiences, who are my most important, and I would say that most often it's going to be donors, volunteers and kind of your mission message. So you know and prioritizing who is most important in that area, I think, is where you'll find the most success and also save your sanity. Yes, which is important.
Speaker 1:Yes, which is important.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is. It is very important, a very important piece of the puzzle here.
Speaker 1:Yes, definitely. Okay, so we've kind of I know I'm going to put the blog post on the required reading. We will link that one in the show notes. But the other thing I think if someone is really starting out brand new, that would be a fantastic resource is Firespring's toolkit. Yes, talk to us a little bit about the resources that you guys have put together for this, because I think it's fantastic.
Speaker 2:I love this tool so much. It is one of my absolute favorites. So Firespring has a marketing toolkit and it is really designed for people who are either brand new to a position or brand new to nonprofit marketing and it talks you through first, like how to create a marketing plan and this is not a super detailed like this is really just the quick top level nuts and bolts of how to put something together. So you've got a place to start. Then we have a branding checklist to make sure that your brand is ready to go and up to date. We've got a storytelling piece in there, so it kind of helps you to build stories.
Speaker 2:We have some social media tidbits so that we talk about how to create a social media plan, how to build content pillars, how to make a schedule for when to post and where to post and all those things. We have a piece on your website to make sure that that's up and ready to go and finally, a piece on optimizing and writing for search engine optimization on your website. So all of that is included in this free downloadable resource. I think, even if you have been a marketer for years, there's, there are tidbits in here that you can grasp, maybe things you haven't thought about. There's some templates, there's some checklists and it's just a really cool tool. I'm really proud of how our team put it together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's. It is a fantastic resource. Specifically, I would say for myself, the one that I really liked a lot was the writing for SEO. Specifically, I would say for myself, the one that I really liked a lot was the writing for SEO, because my background I'm old school, right, my background in writing press releases it very much. The way that you write for a press release for a journalism article, all of those things that are kind of in my background is not how we write now right To make it work. So there were some really interesting pieces, I think, for me even in there, because, yeah, my old school training brain around those press release writings is very different, very different, and making sure that you have that in the back of your mind and just that you're thinking about it.
Speaker 2:Even something as simple as making sure that there's a frequently asked questions page on your website, because that automatically optimizes for how people search, right? So you know, there's all kinds of tidbits like that in that SEO writing section and it really is, I think, incredibly helpful for people at all different stages and parts in their job and career.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we will definitely be linking that in the blog post in our show notes for this one, so definitely go check it out. The one question I've been kind of asking everybody this whole season as we wrap up today is if you could give one piece of advice to that new nonprofit marketer. We're going to focus specifically on that one for this episode. If you could give them one piece of advice as they start their role in this space, what would you tell them?
Speaker 2:I would tell them that the key to success as a nonprofit marketer is planning, because your job is so much harder if you're constantly having to come up with things on the fly, if you're shooting from the hip, so to speak it's all so much harder. And so if you can make a plan and that doesn't mean that you're married to that and you have to live and die by it, but it at least gives you somewhere to go so if you make a plan, then all you have to do is work the plan. Otherwise, you're constantly building the plane as you're flying, and no one can do their best work when you are working in that manner. And so if I had to do anything as a brand new marketer, I would have spent more time on the planning and less time on, you know, the creative and those kinds of things, because I think the plan is what really sets you up for success.
Speaker 1:That's such a great call out Because, again, the creative is more of the fun side. Oh yeah, right, Everybody wants to do the creative writing and the graphic design and all of the pieces. But again, if we go back to you, it's important to save your sanity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is a fantastic call out. Yeah, it just. It makes it so much easier, it keeps you on track, it keeps you accountable, and I think, instead of sitting down every morning and going what in the world am I going to do today, you at least have a general idea of what you're doing and what comes next. And without that, what I would find when I didn't do a good job of planning is that I would be halfway into a project and be like oh, I wish I would have done it this way, but I don't have time because I didn't plan it out in advance. So ways that I could have been more effective with my messaging or with the. You know the form of delivery that I was, I was using for the messaging, and there's just nothing that feels worse than wishing you had done it differently, but knowing that you just didn't give yourself enough time or enough preparation. And so the plan helps you to to avoid that as best you can.
Speaker 1:I love that. All right, Kirsten, if somebody wanted to connect with you and learn more, or they wanted to learn more about Firespring, how do we find you so?
Speaker 2:the easiest way to find me is LinkedIn. So if you go to LinkedIn and look up Kirsten Hill, you'll find me there. I post a few times a week and you can always drop into direct messages If you have questions. Happy to answer questions there as well. Otherwise, you can go to Firespringcom If you want to get really specific. Firespringcom slash nonprofits will take you specifically directly to our nonprofit resources. We have a blog. Firespringcom slash webinars will take you to our webinar schedule. We give almost weekly webinars on our platform and we also, you know, partner with a nonprofit hub to promote those and talk about those as well. So you know those are the best ways to reach Firespring and me and to find out all of the great resources that we have for nonprofit organizations.
Speaker 1:Excellent, and we will see you on stage at CauseCamp. Yes, in just a couple months. Stage at CauseCamp yes. In just a couple months. So excited Talking about marketing planning so this is so perfect.
Speaker 2:I know I was like, well, this is great, this is exactly where I'm headed anyway. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to I'm actually starting to pull the content for that presentation. It's going to be brand new content for us and looking forward to all the great things that we can share with folks and just being with all the CauseCamp people. It's such a great environment and a great feeling and I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 1:Excellent. Well, kirsten, thank you so much. Thank you Glad to have you here and always appreciate the wisdom that you bring, so thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you so much. I really appreciate the chance to come in and chat and share some of our thoughts and approaches.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much. This has been another episode of the Nonprofit Hub podcast. I'm your host, Megan Spear, and we'll see you next time.