Nonprofit Hub Radio
Whether starting a nonprofit or taking an existing cause to the next level, The Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast is about breaking down how nonprofits can grow. Each episode features an interview with a sector star with insight, stories, or ideas that can take your nonprofit from good to excellence. Join host Meghan Speer every week to make your good go further!
Nonprofit Hub Radio
The Fundraising Metrics That Matter
In this episode of the Nonprofit Hub Podcast, host Meghan Speer is joined by Carly Berna, Fundraiser in Residence at Virtuous, for a practical discussion of key fundraising benchmarks as part of the Nonprofit 101 series. Carly shares insights from Virtuous’ latest Benchmark Report, highlighting key fundraising metrics like donor retention, average gift size, and recurring giving—plus new tools such as "days to second gift," case studies, and a board-ready presentation deck. With an emphasis on data-driven decision-making, Carly encourages fundraisers—especially those just starting out—to view their work through a business lens and understand how tracking the right metrics can help organizations build sustainable donor relationships, break down internal silos, and ultimately increase impact.
Get free nonprofit professional development resources, connections to cause work peers, and more at https://nonprofithub.org
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Speaker 1:Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub podcast. I'm your host, megan Spear, joined today by Carly Berna, who's the fundraiser in residence at Virtuous, has a long fundraising background to herself, so I'm excited to dig in specifically on this episode as part of our Nonprofit 101 series, kind of getting back to the basics. I'm excited to dig in with Carly today on Virtuous' benchmark report. So it is part of our Nonprofit 101 series, kind of getting back to the basics. I'm excited to dig in with Carly today on Virtuous' Benchmark Report because I think, especially when we start out in fundraising, there's so many things to track and watch and look at. Trying to keep them all straight and decide what should be the priority can really be a little bit overwhelming, especially as you're just starting out. So I think this is a great topic for this series.
Speaker 1:So, carly, welcome in, thanks. Thanks for having me. Great to be here. Yeah, I'm excited. So tell us a little bit about your background. I know as a fundraiser you've got a lot of experience, so share a little bit about how you came to Virtuous and kind of your background a little bit as we dig in today. Sure.
Speaker 2:So I was in the fundraising space for over 10 years. I was the chief marketing and development officer at a $30 million nonprofit in Phoenix. Three years into that journey I had to switch CRMs because I just felt like we weren't getting the fundraising power we really needed from our CRM. So I went through the process of choosing Virtuous amongst other CRMs and then I was a seven-year Virtuous customer before I. I joined virtuous last year and you know, like you said, like I love to be able to use my fundraising knowledge to actually apply it to the product and speak to our customers in a way that really makes sense to them, because I've literally been sitting in their seats, yeah that's great.
Speaker 1:So I I saw the virtuous benchmark report last year, got to see a little bit of the this year version at the Responsive Summit last week. So tell me what the biggest difference is from, maybe for someone who read last year's and is now looking at this one. What maybe changed? What's new? What are you most excited about in this new one, before we dig into the actual results?
Speaker 2:new. What are you most excited about in this new one? Before we dig into the actual results, yeah, I'll also just add like last year was Virtuous's first benchmark report and when I came to Virtuous I told Gabe, like, hey, I've been reading all the other CRMs benchmark reports for years because you don't have a benchmark report. And for me as a fundraiser, like benchmark reports were so important because I needed to be able to tell my board like this is where we stand according to the industry, as they would say to me well, our donor retention should be this high. And I'd be like well, why do you think that? Like, you're just kind of pulling that number out of nowhere. So that's kind of how it started.
Speaker 2:But this year there are a couple things changed. In the benchmark report we added a new metric which is days to second gift. Last year we looked at first to second gift conversion rate, which we looked at this year also. But I feel like, looking at days to second gift, you can really measure that and tell, hey, how can I improve that? What do I need to do with the new donor welcome series? Like getting someone to a second gift is like a huge milestone and gets them to continue to stay with the organization. We also added in customer case studies of those who have like improved their average gift or their donor retention or whatever just kind of seeing like what they actually did to make those improvements.
Speaker 2:And then two other resources. One is kind of like an engaging health check tool where you can put in a couple metrics yourself and then see where you fall. And then the last one is a board deck resource that we made. We actually made like a PowerPoint presentation that any nonprofit could take and show their board and be like this is where we're at compared to the industry. I used to always take benchmark reports and like put them in my board presentations and be like here's where we're at, here's where the industry is. So we just kind of did that for you. So if you wanted to show your board like, hey, here's the areas that we're at, here's where the industry is, so we just kind of did that for you. So if you wanted to show your board like, hey, here's the areas that we're doing great at, here's the areas to improve and here's what we need to do, along with like recommendations or resource asks, just to make that conversation super simple.
Speaker 1:I love that. So, keeping in mind this as part of Nonprofit 101, right back to the basics. So, for somebody who's maybe new to their fundraising career, what are your recommendations out of the report of maybe the top three metrics? If you're just starting out, what are those top three that we really want to focus on and how do we track them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say probably. The first one is donor retention, which is like I'm kind of surprised. I'm saying that myself because as a fundraiser, I paid attention to a lot of metrics and donor retention always wasn't at the top, because that isn't always the number that I'm being pushed by other people in the organization. They don't really know what donor retention is. So, yeah, not paying attention to it, but really it's the number of donors that are staying on the file this year that we're giving last year. So how many are you retaining? Obviously, this is super important because if you're not retaining them, like, you're having to fill your funnel with new donors all the time and it's really expensive to do that and it's always easier to engage a donor that's on the file, Like right now.
Speaker 1:You know they've already bought in and now you just need to figure out how to get them to be more engaged with your mission I agree with that and I I'm actually really excited that we're, that the industry as a whole is focused on retention more, because I think you're right for the longest time it was. It was not a metric we talked about, but it is so critical to the overall health of your fundraising program.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the second I would say is average gift and really because it's a number that you can change without changing your donor volume. So a lot of times you know we're like, oh, we need new donors, we need new donors. Actually, if you just improve your average gift or the average giving of your current donors like we just looked at donor retention many are staying on the file. Now, of the ones staying on the file, how much are they giving year over year and can you just upgrade them? Can you just improve that and that will increase your revenue without trying to again fill the funnel with more and more new donors. Nice, and then last and dave rayleigh will thank me for this. But recurring giving, yes, I just. I mean, we've been talking about it for what feels like a decade now, but it I just feel like it really is like such a sustainable, predictable revenue source and nonprofits that don't have like a branded monthly program are really missing out on really easy revenue and just getting donors to really engage in a way where they want to continue giving.
Speaker 1:I, yes, shout out Dave. He's been on the podcast twice now talking about this. So, yes, wholeheartedly go back and check out those episodes as well. But going back, I just thought about this going back to the average gift metric, one of the things that I thought was so smart coming out of Responsive Summit. Somebody had shared about how that impacts. Then your ask yeah, talk a little bit about that. Once you actually know that number, how does that impact? Maybe your online giving forms, your direct mail asks what does that influence look like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, giving forms. Your direct mail asks what does that influence look like? Yeah, in the report we actually measured average gift, median gift and online average, for a variety of reasons. Median gift is kind of like that number that your donors give. It's really the gift right in the middle. So what do they give? On it all the time, I guess. But that number, I feel like, is the perfect number to anchor your asks around. That number, I feel like, is the perfect number to anchor your asks around.
Speaker 2:So, let's say, your median gift is $50. Don't start your donation form at $20. If most of your donors are giving $50, like, start it at $50. And that can be a really great upgrade strategy. And then, like I said, we also looked at online average gift because we wanted to see the difference between just like offline average and online average, as well as like, which was growing, which wasn't. Online. Average gift would say a lot about what you just mentioned of like how are your donation forms working? What are the asks? Are you doing upgrade asks? Like, if they go off the form? Like are you saying, hey, how about a you know a $20 ask, or whatever? I just think it says a lot to like your online storytelling, your donation amounts, your ask a raise so you can look at it in different ways, but be looking at some version of like what your donors are giving every year so that you can figure out how to adjust that year over year.
Speaker 1:So good. And then do you, do you guys have a recommendation around online versus direct mail, do you? Do you generally see people do the same asks on those appeals yeah.
Speaker 2:So what's great about online? Um well and I mean you can do this with with direct mail too I would just would say that people aren't doing this online as much as if you have a, like an online giving page that is connected to your CRM and you can actually change every single ask array according to that donor history. That's really how you can affect that online average gift. So someone comes on your page. Their average gift is $1,000. Don't ask them for a $10 gift. Adjust the ask array accordingly, or vice versa. Their average gift is $10. Don't ask them for a $1,000 gift.
Speaker 2:So if you are actually connecting that data and making it super personalized, that can be great for online average gift. I feel like in direct mail, we've kind of been doing that for decades. Like we changed the ask array based on you know their last gift or whatever calculation you're using, and then use a multiplier and you get that. But online, I feel like not everyone has the technology to like connect their CRM and their donation forms together. So we need to actually learn from our direct mail which I wouldn't often say, but it's something we've been doing in direct mail that we should be doing online also.
Speaker 1:That's great. So for somebody who, again, is just starting out first fundraising job, there are some of these metrics I feel like are words that they might not even be familiar with. Yeah Right, so let's just like baseline, get on the same page. What are some of those terms in there that you see of? Like you know, I wish someone would have explained this to me when I was first starting out so that I would have started stronger. Yeah.
Speaker 2:One thing I will say about this benchmark report is we explain, like, the calculation for every report, we explain why it matters, we explain how to improve it. So we obviously like can't get into all that in 30 minutes, but for those that download it, like it's it's really supposed to be a helpful tool to a fundraiser. That's like I don't know where to start or what to look at. But I would say, like even the words retention and acquisition, I really didn't know what they meant. Acquisition is acquiring new donors, so that's a metric we look at in here too.
Speaker 2:But if you think about you have 100 donors. They're not going to continue to give year over year, like some are going to stop giving, so you need to acquire, add new donors to that bucket of 100 donors. At the same time, retention is keeping those donors that you already have. So it's really a balance between how much you're retaining and how much you're acquiring. I don't think I really quite understood that when I started. I was just like we need to get more donors, more donors, like all the time, but not like, oh, I could also pay attention to retaining my current donors.
Speaker 1:And what does it look like to do that? Yeah, and I think part of that is kind of the pressure that comes with the job, right? Yeah, you're going to be driven to get more donors. Yes, whether that's from your boss, the board, etc. So it is a little bit of a balancing act on some of those pressures. But I think it's interesting to think about if somebody who's coming in and I would love your feedback as someone who's been in the field if someone is coming in brand new, maybe, to an organization that hasn't been tracking anything, or who doesn't have any sort of system in place for that, and is on that just like old school we got to get more. We got to get more. Where would you suggest they start in terms of, like, introducing change or how do we go about getting away from the? This is how we've always done it if you're brand new to an organization that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I was at an organization that was 50 plus years old and they had never tracked cost to acquire.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that was that. That feels like the basics, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:That was honestly really unlocking for us. And what that means cost to acquire is if you look at like let's just look at digital, say, you spent twenty thousand dollars and you acquired ten thousand, which would be an amazing number but I'm just using round numbers here like saying how much it costs to acquire a new donor on each channel should really speak volumes into what you're doing. If you're just focusing on getting new donors but you have no idea how much it costs to get each one, like you're not really making smart fundraising decisions. I'm super passionate about cost to acquire an ltb. I think it's like the biggest unlock to all of fundraising but you know what it costs to get a new donor and you know how much that donor is going to give over your lifetime.
Speaker 2:It's just, I mean, it's simple business but like I think sometimes we're so focused on, like you said, like what's our active donor count and like numbers that are more like vanity metrics, like really understanding your cost per donor and how much that donor is going to give over their lifetime by channel I cost per donor and how much that donor is going to give over their lifetime by channel I think is like that could be the smartest thing for a beginning fundraiser, because you can know oh, I should not be spending on this channel, even though we get a huge quantity of donors, the quality is very low, so let's switch over to digital or whatever other channel that is working for us. If I could have one metric to operate all my fundraising off of and know nothing else, it would be that Cost to acquire donors and lifetime value of those donors.
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Speaker 1:I'm sure folks who have listened to the podcast for any length of time now are probably sick of me saying this one thing, but it echoes of what you just said, and that is that nonprofit is nothing but a tax status. You still have to run it like a business, and that means each individual, individual department has to run like a business, and if you are not able to make those smart decisions that are data informed, then you're not running like a business. And if you are not able to make those smart decisions that are data informed, then you're not running like a business. Right, and that is the hill I will die on. It is just attack status. We've got to change that thinking and embrace smart decision-making. Yeah, totally agree with that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so were there, within some of the other metrics that you guys have looked at, one of the things that I think can be problematic in nonprofits in general and it's probably true in for-profit companies is how much this data is siloed Within the metrics that we should be tracking. Are there ways to make sure that we're including everybody in those decisions? Do you know what I mean? Like, if there are, I feel like sometimes marketing has their own things that they're looking at and fundraising, donor development, has things they're looking at, and even sometimes within development teams you've got metrics that just major gifts are looking at versus annual fund folks, back and forth. Do you have some thoughts on how we can start to break down those silos within the data to make sure that everybody has a big, the whole picture?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a great question. One of the things that we often say is, like these seven metrics we're looking at are really all pieces of a puzzle. Like you can't look at donor retention without looking at donor acquisition and looking at donor expansion and all of that. One of the metrics we have in here that would probably be good to define because it's also a word I probably wouldn't have known when I started fundraising is portfolio balance, and what we're looking at there is like the balance of your entire donor file how much are general donors versus mid-level donors versus major donors, general donors versus mid-level donors versus major donors? And this, I feel like, is super key to breaking down silos, because all we look at is, well, how much is the major donor team doing? Like, just in their silo doesn't really say anything about the whole organization. You're really looking for like a literally a balanced portfolio. So, again, thinking back to like a finance thought, you know you want to diversify your revenue streams. You don't want, like, 90% major donors or 90% general donors, so you're really looking for a balance between those three.
Speaker 2:I love this metric because I don't often see it on benchmark reports, so I think it gives so much insight into like, oh, maybe we shouldn't be paying so much attention to major donors, maybe we should be thinking about how to upgrade general into mid-level donors or mid into major. And that's not saying like the major donor team is bad or doing something wrong, but it's saying like let's think about the health of the revenue of the whole organization and where we should be focusing. So I think some of those metrics should bring conversations like that between marketing, fundraising and development, where sometimes it's like fighting over dollars to say, okay, we all want a greater mission here. Like that's really what we're trying to do is grow an organization. And what does that look like, based on, like, what we're seeing with the way our donors are balanced?
Speaker 1:That's so good. So that brings up another question, though, especially, I think, as folks are maybe starting out. So that brings up another question, though, especially I think, as folks are maybe starting out One. I do think it's interesting to say like that department will be called so many things Just in the course of your sentence. We've called it marketing and development, which are the same Stewardship. There's so many ways that we use this word, so, yes, interchangeable, which just cracks me up, but I think the interesting piece of that when we talk about major gift, mid-level donor, general, online donors, we tend to think about that in the sense of a funnel, right, and we've talked a couple of times in here about the upgrade idea. If you were just starting out, what are some basics of ways that people can upgrade from one to another, help to move those folks down the pipeline? What are some suggestions that you would have in that regard?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Also. I'll just add like philanthropy is the new hot word to call this department.
Speaker 1:That's true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, always a new word. We're talking about the new, the exact same department.
Speaker 1:Yes. And then what's the other? If you're in higher ed, it's advancement. Yes, advancement services, yeah, for sure, yes. So many things for just one word.
Speaker 2:I mean I think it's important to think about taking someone from general to mid and then mid to major. So you know some of the things we already talked about, like even just having something on your donation form, that's, are you willing to upgrade whatever 50 extra dollars to pay for this well that we're doing in africa, or whatever, like just just seeing if someone would respond to that. The thing that we did was that we set like notifications within our CRM that would tell us if someone had just like given an extra gift or a higher amount. So, like I personally got a notification every time someone gave a thousand dollar gift and I would go look at that record and I would be like, okay, should this remain a general donor or should I move this to a mid-level rep? Because sometimes those people like I often say like mid-levels get lost. Like those mid-level donors, they're like gen x. You know, we care about millennials, we care about baby boomers and we look right over everyone.
Speaker 1:Everyone wants to ignore us.
Speaker 2:It's fine, yeah um, but sometimes, like if someone gives a thousand dollar gift, we're like you know a thousand dollars, whatever. But like that could be someone saying like hey, I'm a little bit more interested. So just I would literally glance at the record, maybe decide how I felt about like maybe they should look at their wealth score and then assign them, or not Like just taking that extra time to be like, okay, is this someone who's ready for that next level and should they be cultivated a little differently? And same thing from mid-level to major donors. Like what are the?
Speaker 2:Just think about, like the keys that they're trying to tell you by the actions that they're taking. Maybe they give a $5,000 gift and they've never given a $5,000 gift before. Is it time to upgrade them? What is it you're doing in your upgrade strategy besides just tactics? Tactics, you know, sending them a major donor appeal and seeing if they'll give differently or, like I said, online upgrades, but paying attention to the behavior, like they're literally telling you a story by their behavior and if we just ignore that or we don't have time to look at it or whatever, we're missing out on those upgrade opportunities.
Speaker 1:I am curious because I think this is maybe somewhere where people could get stuck, especially if they're just starting out. It would be lovely if we could sit here and say, across the board, mid-level is X dollars to X dollars, major gift is anything above X X dollars, general is below X dollars, and that is just the formula that we use industry-wide. Welcome in, right, but that's so. Specific organization to organization yes, let's talk about how we, how we even figure out what that should look like in our organizations. Yeah, yeah, we can't have a balanced portfolio unless we know what those designations look like.
Speaker 2:That's a great point I mean, I worked somewhere where I think we talked about changing the definitions like every few years. Yeah, like, is a major donor a 10 day giver or is it cumulative? Is it a single gift? Yeah, so the way we defined it in the report and then I'll talk about like general nonprofits, is general donors were under $1,000 giving mid-level Annually. Yes, mid-level was $1,000 to $9,999. And then major was $10,000 plus.
Speaker 2:But I would say, for your organization, you should almost like look at a bell curve of what type of gifts your donors are giving.
Speaker 2:Because, say, your organization has massive major donors and, like your major donors should be 25K plus because you're a really major donor focused organization or you're not. You're like much smaller general donor organization and like someone giving 5K is a major donor. Like it really depends what your donor file looks like. Because if you just say, oh well, no one gives 25K, so we have no major donor, like it really depends what your donor file looks like. Because if you just say, oh well, no one gives 25K, so we have no major donors, well then you're ignoring what are your major donors. Yeah, so I would look at like almost, like I said, like a bell curve of like where do you where what are the high ends, what are the low ends, and determine what your general mid and major donor levels are? And they can change over time, because maybe your goal is like, hey, let's get more people into 10k plus, and then you have to redefine okay, now our major donors are 10k plus.
Speaker 1:Nice. So within that and again the way that we talk about things, so you have general donors. I heard somebody say one time that the general human population does not walk around with. You know, when we all go to these conferences and you get your name tag and then you have like the ribbons below it. Yeah, yeah, the general human population does not walk around with little ribbons that say things like mid-level donor laps.
Speaker 1:Donor online giver. Annual fund donor event attendee right, we don't walk around with these little ribbons that we as an industry tend to like slap people into, and so I think maybe that's the other, at least for me. The other takeaway is, like all of those things are internal. Yes, I, I attended and I'm saying that because I attended a mid-level event one time for an organization that I support and it had, like the, the fundraising staff, the development staff had very clearly been told like these are the people that you're trying to elevate to that next level, yeah, and you could see them. At one point I overheard one of them talking to a friend of mine about becoming a major donor and like these are not, these are not outside terms, no, right. So I want to just kind of clarify that everything we've talked about today, yeah, is your internal conversation with you, with your team, within your organization. This is not how we approach people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, you don't put dear major donor on your letter and I actually like not to get on a rabbit trail, but like I hate the title major gift officer. We often say, like mgos, major gift officers, like Like if I'm a donor, I don't really want to be talking to the major gift officer. That doesn't really mean anything to me at all. That's why you see more titles that are like I don't even know, like nonprofit representative or like whatever, just something that isn't like major gift officer. But yeah, totally all internal titles, like I wouldn't even tell a major donor they were a major donor. Which is why sometimes you see nonprofits have like major donor programs, like champions and president circle and things like that. So you say to them like hey, we value you, you have exclusive access, whatever. But we're not calling you like a major donor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just yeah that as we were talking about. I'm like I especially if we're talking about people that are new to the fundraising space I just really want to put that shell around it.
Speaker 1:These are internal only, kind of terms. Yes, for sure. So I'm curious. We're almost out of time, but I'm curious. Think back to when you were just starting out your first fundraising gig. What is it that you really wish someone would have told you up front? What is that piece? Or what have you learned over the course that you're like man. If I would have just had that knowledge 15, 20 years ago, what does that look like? Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2:I feel like you already said it, which is that a nonprofit is just a tax status, because I was really just like trying to figure out, like okay, I'm a fundraiser, I'm supposed to raise money. Okay, like, let's just do everything I can to raise money. But really, like there was a ton of data at my disposal that I had no idea what to do with and I wasn't thinking about it from like a business perspective of you know, let me look at our revenue and which areas we should look at. Like I was just like I'm here to raise money and like put out social media posts and just like do whatever. But I wasn't thinking about it Like you were saying, like hey, my department is a business unit that I own and like what can I specifically do to grow this business unit? Like you really have to put like your business data hat on and be like what does this look like?
Speaker 2:I think that would have helped me and, honestly, like I'm glad you're doing this podcast because I didn't. At the time I did not feel like there was a place where I could go and be like here's nonprofit 101 for data metrics. Like I just was trying to learn honestly from mainly fundraising agencies because they were the ones putting out like the most material. Tell me about these metrics and what I can do with them. Like I just tried to lean in and all the ways I could from that perspective because I didn't feel like there was great resources for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I am excited. I mean, obviously that's why nonprofit hub exists in the first place is that we have these resources, but I'm really excited about this series, specifically for folks who are in that exact same spot. So, to that end, how do we find Virtuous's benchmarking report? If you have show notes, I can put a link. Fantastic, yes, we will link it there.
Speaker 2:Drop it in there. But, like, if you go on the Virtuous website, we have under resources, all the benchmark reports. We also in June I don't know when this episode is dropping, but in June we have vertical benchmark reports too. So, like, if you're in faith, healthcare, human services or education we have different versions for each, just because some of them are really specific. Recurring giving is more common in faith than it is in healthcare, where someone gives because an event happens in their life and now they never give again. Like, donor retention is so different in healthcare than it is in education when, like, you're an alumni and you never give again or whatever. So, like, looking at it by vertical is really important too, just so you can make sure you're benchmarking against the most niche version of your data. But I'll send you the links and you can put them in there of your data. But I'll send you the links and you can put them in there.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. We'll definitely link that in the show notes and on our social media pages as well. This will drop in July, so by the time folks are hearing about it, those niche lines will be out for sure. Cool, that's great. Awesome, carly. The closing question that I've been asking everybody on this season is if you could give one piece of advice to nonprofit leaders, what would that be? This has obviously been like kind of a crazy year for nonprofits in general, but especially for those leaders. If you could give them one piece of advice or encouragement, what would that look like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good question. I think sometimes we can get really wrapped up in the numbers Like how do we improve this, how do we improve that? You know all of those things. But like the encouragement I would give is like what you're doing not many people get to do, which is work at an organization that has an amazing mission that you obviously care about. If you're working there, Like don't lose sight of that. Yeah, maybe your recurring giving number is down or your revenue is down or whatever, but like you're doing great work and like the world needs you to do that great work, so don't lose sight of that. And you said nonprofit leaders, but tell your staff the same thing. Yeah, Like there's a balance between the pressure of let's do better, to let's keep doing this thing that we're doing that is affecting our community or our state or our country or whatever, Because without nonprofits there's no one else out there solving problems that's what nonprofits are doing is solving problems, so focus on that.
Speaker 1:So good Love that word, curly. Thank you, appreciate you coming in and sharing the benchmark report with us today. I think that's going to be a great resource, especially for our nonprofit one-on-one friends that are just starting out Awesome. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah Again. My guest has been Carly Berna, who's the fundraiser in residence at Virtuous. This has been another episode of the Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast. I'm your host, megan Spear, and we'll see you next time. Bye.