Nonprofit Hub Radio
Whether starting a nonprofit or taking an existing cause to the next level, The Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast is about breaking down how nonprofits can grow. Each episode features an interview with a sector star with insight, stories, or ideas that can take your nonprofit from good to excellence. Join host Meghan Speer every week to make your good go further!
Nonprofit Hub Radio
Governing with Purpose: Strategies for Better Board Leadership
In this episode of the Nonprofit Hub Podcast, guest Ben Mohler, chief executive and consultant at Giving Three and author of Nonprofit Board Member Field Guide and Journal, unpacks the realities of nonprofit board leadership. Drawing on decades of experience, he offers practical insights on how organizations can move beyond filling seats with well-meaning supporters to cultivating governing boards that truly represent and advance the mission. From clarifying the different types of boards, to navigating fundraising expectations, to fostering healthy board culture and accountability, this conversation equips nonprofit leaders with both encouragement and actionable strategies for building stronger, more effective boards.
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Speaker 2:Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub Podcast. I'm your host, Megan Spear. Joining me today is Ben Muller, who's the chief executive and chief consultant at Giving3. Excited to dig in here today, Ben, because we're going to be talking about boards and this is one of the most requested topics that we get at Nonprofit Hub, because it is oh, it can be such a challenge, especially for smaller or startup nonprofits, to get this right from the jump, but it makes all the difference. So I cannot wait to hear your wisdom on the subject. We're going to be actually talking about Ben's new book, Nonprofit Board Member Field Guide and Journal. I have my copy right here. Very excited to dig into all of that, Ben. Welcome in.
Speaker 3:Thank you, it's good to be here.
Speaker 2:So tell us a little bit about yourself and your background in your nonprofit journey that got you to where you are today and to the point of realizing that this book was such a need in the space.
Speaker 3:Well, I think, having listened to your podcast, I think I'm probably one of the outliers in that my first full-time job was in nonprofits.
Speaker 2:Okay, that is definitely different. I feel like everyone else comes on and says I didn't really mean to fall into fundraising, I didn't really mean to fall into non-profit work. Uh, they just ended up there. So you were yeah on it yeah and what, but?
Speaker 3:but the path to it was was unintentional. So I thought I wanted to be an engineer. Actually, as a kid I wanted to be a fighter, a jet fighter pilot, and then I realized that I didn't want to spend all my time in front of a computer. I like to be around people and I just. It was one of those, you know this, moments where I met someone that worked in the sector and they said, hey, have you ever considered this as a field? And I said no, and so I explored it and, like, right when I graduated from college I started working in the sector.
Speaker 3:So my first job was at the University of Texas at Austin, and I was really fortunate that in that first role I was working with the board for the foundation. And so you know, from that moment forward, even some when I was in college, in high school, I was working with boards. But that was like the first like full-time hands-on with a board. And you know, there's a lot of things that I observed and some things like I just like assumed it was the way things were. And then, as I grew in the profession, I realized some things were the way they were. And then, as I grew in the profession, I realized some things were the way they were because no one else had really challenged it or looked at potentials for change and so like.
Speaker 3:Over the years, as I added on education and practical experience and was able to test with the boards that I worked with, I saw where we could start to move the lines and how we could start to equip boards, so that that's kind of the the cliff notes of. I don't know, is that even a term nowadays, cliff notes, or is it like I?
Speaker 2:assume so how else, how else do people, I think, the?
Speaker 3:kids nowadays, the kids nowadays. I think it's like tldr oh, too long read yeah, I think that's, that's the yeah the summation the modern yes got it.
Speaker 2:I didn't realize that. I didn't realize those two things were synonyms, yeah.
Speaker 3:I think that's the cleavage.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the summation the modern, yes, Got it. I didn't realize that. I didn't realize those two things were synonyms. Yeah, we're going to make it so. Yeah, I'm learning already.
Speaker 3:It is now, yes, so that was kind of the book. Where we are today is kind of from those early seeds.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's great. So one of the things that I because I do have my copy one of the things that I think is really interesting and I'd like to kind of start here today is I think people take on, okay, I'm going to be on the board, right, and we don't always define even what type of board you're on, right. Each organization is a little bit different in that regard. So I want to kind of level set and talk about the types of boards and then specifically focus on that governing type today, because I think that's what the majority of our audience has.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I'd love to hear your take two on how we make sure that the board understands those roles and what that means. So break down the three types for me first, and then let's focus in on that oh, I didn't know.
Speaker 3:There's gonna be a test on this podcast I mean you wrote the book, ben. Yes, so there I'm gonna pull my copy because I don't want to get it wrong, because you put me on the spot here. Oh, and I'm, if you're following along in the book, is this? I feel like, uh, as a kid we had, like the books on tape right and, like they would say, the page number in your book. It's page number, whatever.
Speaker 2:So in the book. If you're following along, you need help.
Speaker 3:Page number nine yeah, there are there. There's advisory, a community and governing. Yeah, oh, look at that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um so, I read your book.
Speaker 3:I'm a podcast host well, I haven't. I haven't ever since, like if we finished the final edits, I've kind of not thought about it, but now I guess I gotta think about it again. Welcome back, yes, welcome back to the book. So, yeah, the um, the most boards are going to be governing boards. So those are boards where you are called on to. Basically you are protecting the greater good, you are serving the interests of the community and so your fiduciary, your governing board, you're looking at how you can protect the interests of the community.
Speaker 3:So that's the typical, like the legal board. Then you have advisory boards and a lot of folks will be on advisory boards and say they're on a board and think they're on a governing board. But an advisory board is really folks that have knowledge, have expertise and they bring that to the organization and they help advise, but they're not actually voting on, like they're not assessing the performance of the CEO, they're not looking at the financials. They may be looking at the financials but not really, like you know, going through the audit process and reviewing the audit notes, like all that stuff.
Speaker 2:And if there's something wrong in the financials, they have no liability.
Speaker 3:Yes, and then the community board. It's like you know, I was on the community board once and it was for a hospital and it was really just a way for the organization to engage the community, to make sure that they were connected to the audience that they served, and so it's a way for folks to, you know, have a voice, have a role, bring some value to the organization, but not have, you know, really a deeper commitment of having to attend meetings. And generally my experience is it's kind of a, it's a scale of, like community boards is a little less structured, maybe a little bit less organized, is a little less structured, maybe a little bit less organized, a little less formal, and then advisory boards, a little bit more of all those things, and then the governing board is full on, like all those things.
Speaker 2:Okay, so let's presume, for the duration of this conversation then, that we're talking about governing boards, because that is ultimately like, legally, you have to have one right, yes, there is somebody that is in charge. What I see so often is organizations who especially maybe in their startup mode, the board is the founder's mom and their college roommate and their cousin's husband and you know a bunch of cheerleaders, which is is helpful, but I would think and you can certainly dispute me if I'm wrong I would think there has to be a better way to start yeah right, the problem with that to the let's talk start.
Speaker 2:Let's start with those startup folks yeah how do we do it right from the jump?
Speaker 3:so I use an analogy in my trainings and the book if you haven't read it has a subtle gardening theme because I've found so many analogies that are just ripe for the picking pun intended one is in the board. If you plant like early summer, you plant a lot of zucchini. Like in the spring, as you plant a lot of zucchini by the middle of summer, you're going to be really upset that all you have is like zucchini, like zucchini out the year.
Speaker 3:After your ears yeah and the same is true if you're recruiting like startup and you recruit a bunch of cheerleaders and your friends, like folks that are, like you know, on your side, and you get to a point where you're ready to grow and change and you, like you're limited to you can you're limited to you can make zucchini bread, you can make zucchini stir fry like there's only so many ways you can do zucchini and after a while you get tired of the same thing, and so I always encourage, like you're looking for folks that you know represent the community, represent the mission, and so it may be hard to find folks. You may have to start with folks that know you and know your passion, but you really quickly need to pivot and get folks that represent the mission, represent the community, because that's where you're going to start to be able to hold yourself accountable and really impact the mission in a way that is, I think, most folks really want to impact.
Speaker 2:And when it comes to skill set, I've heard people say you know, you want to find somebody with a financial background, you want to find someone with a legal background, you want to find somebody who's really well connected to maybe the philanthropic community in your area or has maybe some more resources. Is there kind of a checklist that we should be looking for? Or is passion for the organization enough in that startup phase?
Speaker 3:So it follows two different paths. One is it depends on the organization and what it does, and another path is the stage at which the organization is, and so if you're grassroots, starting up, you don't need a lot of deep expertise. Folks that are going to get frustrated that you're doing the basics. Also, if you are a big organization and you've been around for a while, you're going to want folks that represent a broad spectrum, like you're not going to want. You know, I just saw someone actually commented on the book like a checklist of things. You want a banker, an attorney and a left-handed venture capitalist.
Speaker 3:So my general advice is you're going to want to build a board matrix and flesh out what are the roles that are critical for us to have in terms of providing guidance and insight on where we need to be and how we're doing. But I also want to caution folks. A lot of folks will say, well, we're a working board and the challenge with a working board is it blurs the lines between governance and volunteer, and we actually I just had this conversation. I was doing a workshop, a day-long workshop in Canada and actually in Alberta, calgary, alberta so people, that actually know our friends up north, yes, and they.
Speaker 3:We were talking about boards and working boards and it was a really great discussion because I think a lot of organizations as a shortcut because they don't have time to manage a lot of different boards is that they just smush them into one. But the challenge you have in a board meeting is that it is so easy to focus on the day-to-day if you are a volunteer board and not really focus on holding yourself accountable, looking at a long-term vision, those sort of things, having a generative perspective about what is our purpose and sense-making of how do we address it. And so having that line of a volunteer board versus a governing board is critical, not to say you can't have a working board. But I would always like create a firewall and say, okay, this is a board meeting, we're going to be, it's a board meeting and the working board you know, working on whatever the communication plan that's going to be next week or whatever, like you, separate the two so that you can that you can table it for volunteer work.
Speaker 3:So that's a challenge I think that a lot of organizations face in terms of when they're recruiting board members. I think part of it comes down to. There's no finishing school for board service. Yeah, like, I think, people in the corporate world, people that are in the for-profit, the private space, they, when they're on boards, they understand what they're doing because it's part of their DNA of business. The role of a nonprofit board is very different, and so sometimes there's this communication gap. When those folks join the board, what is their role? And they'll start to come at it with a for-profit perspective where they understand that their role is different. And that's part of the challenge, I see, is that when we bring them in, we're not helping prepare them for how it's different and help them be ready to address those differences, and that's really kind of what the book gets to.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I want to shift gears a little bit away from maybe those initial startup. How do we start? Well, because I think a large majority of us find ourselves like we've been in the game a while, organization's been around for a while, we might have crossed those lines between governance and working board. Things are a little, maybe a little too knotted up between the two, or we have New board members who don't necessarily always understand their role on the board. So if somebody was saying you know what? Look, I understand that this is a challenge for our organization. We're kind of in a mess of it at the moment. What's the first step to get out of the mess? Like, how do we shift gears? Where do we even start to try and fix a problem like that?
Speaker 3:That's a great question. So I get this a lot with organizations that they call me up and they say, hey, you know, they recognize our board's a mess or we need to change the dynamic. But I think the biggest issue that they face is that it's easier to do nothing than it is to do something.
Speaker 3:And so and the organizations that actually start to make progress when they've had that realization that they need to do something. It's important to fall through and to do something, and I would even say it doesn't matter what you do, but do something. So I'm personally, I'm a big fan of border treats. Okay, I think the border treats help the board really understand that the game is changing, that things are getting real and it's like we're getting serious. Because for a board to have to carve out and make time to not be distracted and to be together for a half day hopefully a full day, even better, a day and a half, like a dinner the night before and overnight, and then a full day, like that's my ideal. That's a big deal. I mean the time, the cost, you know, taking people away from family and work, that's a huge deal. Typically, when organizations are at a point where they really need that, it's hard to really stick, stick to it and to follow through and it's easier to say, oh well, that's a lot of work, I'm going to, we're just going to, you know. You know, push it down the road. So the two things I found that are most critical is finding who on the board has has like the leadership perspective, has like, like, has the voice or the respect of the rest of the board and it may not be the chair, but who has that perspective that has a respect, and I would work with them on helping them understand what you see.
Speaker 3:And how do you get them on board with how do we start to change the narrative, how do we start to change the culture? That'd be one piece. The other piece is that you don't have to do retreat to start, and that's kind of what the book gets to. Is, if you find, let's say, you don't have just one like opinion leader in the group, let's say you have three people that are, you know, better than ambivalent, they're open to suggestion. That the book is designed to help them realize that, oh, we can be different, things are different, and it helps them kind of draw out like, how am I personally going to help this difference, this change, happen? And so it's a way to make baby steps from, you know, the ED or a board chair realizing that things need to change to. Let's start to start to make steps, and it may not be so big of a step that it is a border treat, but it's something that gets them in the right direction, which is the most critical thing.
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Speaker 2:Anytime we host a webinar on fundraising, I feel like it pops up in the chat and I know there's different schools of thought, so I'm very curious to hear your answer. But the one that we get most often is how do I turn my board into fundraisers or how do I get my board to embrace being fundraisers in that piece One? Is that even the actual question that we should be asking? Yeah, let's start there. But also I'm curious your input on. You know, what does it look like for boards to be involved in that fundraising process? I know some boards that have a requirement you have to be giving it X percent or X amount to even keep your seat on the board or get it on the board in the first place. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that side of it as well and the fundraising aspect of a board.
Speaker 3:Okay, two questions I got to write down because I'm going to forget. I'm going to probably answer one and then get long-winded, then forget the second. So the first one is about first one is about fundraising board and how do we turn the board into fundraisers? And then get them on board.
Speaker 2:And the second one is what is it? What is your take on board? Giving requirements is that? Something that we should be, yeah, thinking through, getting rid of, etc.
Speaker 3:Yeah awesome question, so thank you for letting me write that down so I wouldn't forget. I can I can stay focused.
Speaker 3:So on the first one, I think it's the wrong question okay because when we're talking about we want to have a fundraising board, we're talking about what we want. I think a lot of times when we build boards that we forget that they're doing this partially because of what they want, and so how can we help them find their joy, their purpose, their fulfillment in the board service? I don't feel like we give enough time for board members to spend time together. Okay, it's almost like we give enough time for board members to spend time together.
Speaker 3:It's almost like we're filling all the silence, like we have to create noise and to make them feel like they're doing something. In some instances it's okay for there to be no agenda, but for them to be. I'm not saying board meetings have no agenda, but for them to get together early or to have dinner or to build community. For them to get together early or to have dinner or to build community, because if they build community they're going to be able to ask hard questions, give hard answers, talk in a way that they have a shared purpose. Because they know each other, respect each other, they have that community. And so to the question of fundraising board. It's the wrong question because we're focused on what we want, not what they want. And what they want is they want to spend time on something that's meaningful. They want to make a difference. The book addresses this. I'd say focus more on what is their purpose, what is their? Why do they want to be on the board? Like what? Why are they called to serve this organization? In what way?
Speaker 3:And there's some exercises I do when I do my board trainings where it helps them. It does in a way where they don't feel like it's an emotionally safe space where they can kind of reflect and then identify their true like, the core of like, why and if they can identify that it's huge. Because then they're a fundraising board. Because they're not talking about you know, we need money. They're not going and shaking down their friends. They're sharing with everyone why they're a member of a board, why it's important to them. They're telling the story, they're telling the mission through their eyes. I hate when boards or organizations try to like give board members bullet points or an elevator pitch because, like who's in the elevator looking for the business card or the index card of, like all the things I'm supposed to say?
Speaker 2:you okay. So I hate that phrase. It's like every time people say it it's like nails on a chalkboard to me, because I have. I actively avoid trying to talk to people in elevators. I live in an apartment building, I spend a lot of time going up and down in an elevator and I actively try to avoid talking to people in them. So I've never in my life walked onto an elevator and been like I bet I could tell them about my company right now. Yeah, no, it's so dumb who wants that?
Speaker 3:nobody wants that yes, it's like uh, what's the meme from uh ron burgundy. Yeah, that, oh that escalated quickly.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes yeah, I just. It's one of those phrases that just drives me crazy, because nobody actually walks into an elevator and starts talking about what they do for a living yeah, I mean yeah, unless you're like that person and you don't want to person and you don't want to be that person. You don't want to be that guy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I'll give you an example. I did a board retreat for an organization and one of the people at this retreat used the example of a dictionary and they described why the dictionary represented their passion for the organization and they mentioned a very specific edition of printing of the dictionary because it had swear words and it tied into this, all tied into the mission organization, about finding truth and you know, understanding and knowledge, and like that visual of a dictionary and being able to tell a story is huge, like that has more weight and personality than than any elevator or bullet point list, elevator pitch or bullet point list. Like for them to be able to say you know, let me tell you about this organization and really the reason I'm involved is because I'll tell you the story about the dictionary and like, like it's a total game changer. So I think if, if boards and organizations could focus less on fundraising and more of finding that true personal connection, then they're going to find a much better impact towards the goal of fundraising. Yeah, so that's the first question.
Speaker 3:All right, second question Okay, second question About personal goals or fundraising expectations or whatever. Also, in the book I've broken into three different things. The first one is I say that in the book we define that every board member needs to have a personal board engagement plan. So how are they going to be involved in the business of the board? So involvement is one. How are they going to invest in the mission? So invest is the second. And the third is how are they going to influence others to benefit the mission? So involve, invest and influence.
Speaker 3:And basically every board member has a one-page sheet and they work out through the first quarter bullet points. How am I going to do these three different things? So it'll be one bullet point, two, three. I'd say no more than three bullet points for each of these three categories. And under the invest, I would say a bare minimum is to ask for the board members to give a gift that is personally meaningful I would say that would for me, that is my that's my minimum level of like expectations on giving is a gift that's personally meaningful.
Speaker 3:If you want to elevate that and I think that giving is a gift that's personally meaningful If you want to elevate that and I think that this is a good differentiator is that if someone is going to spend their time to serve on a board, it's something that they care about and you want to limit the board members to those that really truly care and not someone's just doing it out of, like you know, obligation or reciprocity. We all have that. I served on your board, now you need to serve on mine, sort of thing. So the one that would elevate it, I would say is is this organization among your top three philanthropies?
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:So, like in most people, they have to give to their faith tradition. They give to some sort of educational thing, and if you're on the board of an organization like this should be in the top three and the thing about that metric. Yeah, if you don't have it, like if you have the top three and this is number five, like maybe it's not the right time yet yeah so those are. Those are my two measures on board expectations on giving.
Speaker 2:I love it. Okay, so a couple of different times throughout our conversation today, you have said phrases like when I go work with boards or when I do a board workshop. If that phrase has sparked someone's interest and they're like man, we could really use that, or I would love to learn more about what that looks like. How do we find you, how do we connect with you and learn more about your work at Giving Three?
Speaker 3:I'd say probably the easiest thing to do would be go find the book. The book has my website on it and I'm going to ask some basic questions have you done X, y and Z? And a lot of stuff is already in the book. So I'll ask if they've already done that. So I don't want to waste their time to call me about a board retreat. But if they are serious, I'd say go to my website, giving3.com. Buy the book. I mean, it's like what $10?
Speaker 2:You can buy them in bulk, and where do we find the book?
Speaker 3:On Amazon, amazoncom, and just type in my name, benjamin Moeller. I use my full legal name because my mom, you know, wanted my name on the. You know, sure it's my given name, yes, and the title is Nonprofit Board Member Field Guide and Journal. So the first half is just general overview and the second half not really second half but like the last 15 pages is just journal prompts. It's the size of a NICS card. It is small, it's like four by six inches. So it's something that a board member can tuck in their pocket, take on a plane, cram the night before a board meeting and show they know their stuff. It's a small, easy to digest sort of thing. So I'd say those are two things Look for the book, find me online and just send me notes. I'm one of those guys you know. Follow me on linkedin, send me a dm, send me an email, like I actually respond. I don't have bots in a legion of you know like handlers, so there's no gatekeeping here I can personally attest he does respond to both linkedin and email.
Speaker 3:He doesn't like it when you have conversations on two platforms at the same time I think, I think when we first met, I think conversations in three or four platforms.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we had LinkedIn, email and text all going.
Speaker 3:Yeah. At various, but not AM chat, not AOL chat and not Yahoo Messenger.
Speaker 2:Yeah, ICQ, we could bring that back for this express purpose.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you weren't sending me notes on myspace or anything no, I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't even know if I know how to log into my myspace anymore I don't know, or zenga, do you remember zenga? Oh, my word oh my, I don't even know what that one is oh, it was like a myspace wannabe oh got it unless you're the founder of zenga.
Speaker 3:Listen to this. I'm sorry, it's not really how I feel I listen, I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't take bets like this often. I'm gonna go ahead and say the founder of zenga is not listening to non-profits. Anything is possible but I would go ahead and say that you're probably safe on that oh, it's funny because it's true.
Speaker 2:All right. So as we close out our time, ben, the question that I've been asking everyone in this season. Obviously, nonprofit work is never easy, but this year a lot of orgs have really taken some hits. So if you could give one piece of advice or encouragement or wisdom to nonprofit leaders in this season, what would that be?
Speaker 3:And this is a lesson I think applies not just nonprofit work but life in general, and I'm seeing it more and more the older I get is that the small things, when done consistently over time, will make the biggest impact.
Speaker 2:I love that Doesn't have to be the massive like like shake up the world piece.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that was really the origin story for the book is that I was, I had been making small notes ever, you know all the way back 20, what? 25 years ago, and it was those notes and my experiences over time, because I kept, I wouldn't say journal, but I have, like this repository of board related stuff and like, over and over time, the theme of the book started to emerge and then I had to cut it way down to what it is now, but it was this small. If I had just tried to start from scratch, try to make one big, huge thing, then I would never, it would have taken forever and I would have been overwhelmed. And I've seen that not just in this exercise but in all things in my life, that the small things, when done, well, done, consistently over time, had the biggest impact. So, working with donors, building campaigns, invest in staff, you know you'll see it, not maybe not this season, but over subsequent seasons.
Speaker 2:Okay, I love it. Well, ben, thank you so much. I really appreciated the conversation. I think some helpful insights for nonprofits of all sizes. So thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 3:Thank you, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2:Again, my guest has been Ben Moeller of Giving3 and the author of Nonprofit Board Member Field Guide and Journal, which, as he said, you can find on Amazon. Highly recommend checking that out. This has been another episode of the Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast. I'm your host, megan Spear, and we'll see you next time.