Nonprofit Hub Radio
Whether starting a nonprofit or taking an existing cause to the next level, The Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast is about breaking down how nonprofits can grow. Each episode features an interview with a sector star with insight, stories, or ideas that can take your nonprofit from good to excellence. Join host Meghan Speer every week to make your good go further!
Nonprofit Hub Radio
The Science Behind Major Gifts: A New Framework for Fundraising
This episode explores a scientific and psychologically informed approach to major gift fundraising with Bill Crouch, CEO of BrightDot. Bill shares his journey from higher education leadership to developing a consultancy built around understanding emotional intelligence and the balance of left-brain and right-brain thinking in fundraising. He explains how successful major gift work requires both analytical structure and creative relational engagement, and how teams can better leverage these strengths—whether through tailored roles, environmental triggers, or deeper insight into donor motivations. The conversation highlights practical strategies, including how to think like a high-wealth donor, how to build teams that blend data and human connection, and why understanding a donor’s “heart” is essential to securing transformational gifts.
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SPEAKER_03:Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast. I'm your host, Megan Speer, joined today by Bill Crouch, who's the CEO of Bright Dot. Guys, I'm really excited to dig into this conversation. We've talked major gifts, we've talked fundraising, we've talked all the things on the podcast so far this season, but not from this angle. We're going to take a very scientific approach, really, to the whole idea of major gift fundraising. So, Bill, I'm excited to dig into your insights on this. Welcome in.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. Delighted to be here.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So tell the audience a little bit about yourself and your journey that kind of led you to where we are today for this conversation.
SPEAKER_00:Delighted to do it. So I grew up in a preacher's home where my dad was constantly asking people to volunteer to do things or to give money or to tithe. Or so I was just constantly in an environment like that. When I went on to college, I decided that I wanted to move further into higher education. I got my doctor's degree. I went on the faculty of a college. The president, after a couple of months, invited me to his office and said, I've been watching you. I think you could be a college president one day, but you got to learn how to raise major gifts. And so he said, I'm putting you in the development office, and then you're going to be my chauffeur for the next two years. And wherever I go, I'm going to drive. I want you to drive. I'm going to work, but you get to go with me to all the donor visits and I'll talk to you about what I learned and stuff. And so that got me, that got me started. I mean, what an incredible opportunity I was given, right? And then I became director of development of a nonprofit and then vice president of development for a college, and then became the president of a private liberal arts college where I was president for 22 years. And most of that time was spent with high wealth individuals trying to raise money. And then I left to become the senior managing partner of the Jerry Panis Fundraising Consulting Firm in Chicago. And I did that for two years. But as I learned, I didn't like capital campaigns. I wanted to do something different. And so I decided to start my own firm. I hired two developmental psychologists and I said, let's figure out how we can make nonprofits better. And I'm going to spend a year traveling and meeting with top performers. You work on the science and psychology of nonprofit world. And that's how Bright Dot was born. And we we figured that the key element was more the scientific element related to emotional intelligence. And that's where we that's where we started. Now we've worked with over 150 nonprofits in our educational institutions, and we we love what we do, and we're seeing impact.
SPEAKER_03:That's awesome. Uh yeah, I think that's great. First of all, I've heard a lot of people's stories about how they got into fundraising. Uh, that is an approach I've never heard before. But what a cool opportunity to just be able to see it up close and kind of learn that way. That's a really cool path.
SPEAKER_00:It's really cool. And I couldn't call, I couldn't talk wherever we were traveling. He was going to be working. This is the way before cell phones. Sure. People don't know that world. And but on the way back, I was to have 11 questions to ask him. And you know, why did you do this? Why why was the proposal written this way? Why what if we had brought this up? And I just got and I was driving, but I was learning the whole time.
SPEAKER_03:That's great. So one of the things that I I think is interesting about your approach is that it really kind of dives into the left brain, right brain elements, right? So before we dive too deeply into is there a better side, or how do we use these approaches, let's make sure that everybody's kind of level set and define what are some characteristics on right brain and what are some characteristics on left brain, and how do we how do we make sure that we're defining those terms correctly before we dig in further?
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so so the simple way to look at left brain is analytical, organized, data driven, you know, the mathematical parts of what we do in in our world. And then the right, the right brain is the creative, the art, the the fun, the music part of it. And what we've uncovered, it takes a combination of the two. Yeah. And but it's not new, it's new to fundraising, but it's not new to successful people. Successful organizations have always understood the difference between left brain and right brain. So, for instance, uh Lou Frankfurt, who's the CEO of Coach Handbags, which you probably know a lot about.
SPEAKER_03:There's one in my closet, yes.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. When he became the CEO, he said, we're gonna from now on, we're gonna talk about magic and logic. And we gotta have both. We've got to have the data, we gotta know what the customer wants, but we got to have the magic that has a woman wanting to have that coach bag there, the art. Quincy Jones, one of the great composers of all times, used to call it the science and the soul. I gotta have the science to understand what notes to put in there, but I've got to have the soul to relate to the people who are hearing my music, right? Yeah, and all of a sudden we began to realize at Bright Dot that you gotta have both in this fundraising world. And we gotta have the science and the art, but very few people have both.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So that was okay, so that was gonna be my question, right? Typically, when I think of somebody who is, you know, excellent fundraiser, and we're gonna let's keep it to the major gift side, right? Because somebody could be a an excellent, you know, email writer for annual fund, whatever. But let's talk about the major gift side. When I think of somebody who does that, the top personality trait that I think of tends to be that super relational, very gregarious, very like I'm I'm here to build the relationship, which tends to not be the data like the super analytical brain.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Right. So it feels like what we're saying is we need to find a unicorn. But are there ways that you if I'm because I will admit I am super right-brained.
SPEAKER_01:Right, right.
SPEAKER_03:I my business partner and I have very clear delineations of duties. We don't let me math. I it just is not my skill set to deal in numbers and analytics. To be fair, but most of the time I he would rather me talk to people. That's not his skill set either. Great. So we complement each other very well. But if you're somebody who's uh in a major gift role like that, and maybe not a unicorn, are there ways to learn how to be the other? Or what's the best approach to kind of balance that out?
SPEAKER_00:Well, one of the things that we do at Bright High, we're we're disruptors. We want to try to get people thinking differently than they've than they've ever thought before. All right, so we have an assessment tool that we we borrowed from the education board, where we give our development clients, development staff clients, this assessment tool, which immediately allows us to see whether they're left brain or right brain. Okay, right. So we have data. We have data that shows us what they are, right? Then, of course, we want to see if they're in the right position. Right? You don't want a right brain Megan spending half of her time in the office working through data.
SPEAKER_03:No, right? She becomes a very unhappy Megan very quickly.
SPEAKER_00:But what happens in many, many cases is that because of what the reports that the board wants to see, the reports that other people want to see, the reports that you have to turn into case, all of that stuff drives you over to the left side of it and keeps you out. So one of one of our disruptions is we believe that all development staff members, whether they're running the CRM, annual fund or whatever, are all major gift officers. Because the ultimate goal, the ultimate goal is to get major gifts, particularly in the world that we live in today. Sure. It takes a lot of hundred dollar gifts to make a million dollars, right? Yes. And so we want the everybody on the team thinking major gifts. So how can my annual fund, how can this letter help get us there? But then we want to divide the team so that you have the left brain team, you have the right brain team. The goal is for the right brain team to be on the road 80% of the time or dealing with people 80% of the time. Okay. The left side hands them the data that they need, the left side does the report, the left side does the research. But in you, as you know, Megan, you and I, as right brain people, which I am, we could look at data and read it totally different than the person who produced the data. Yes. And that's valuable. That's valuable, but you don't want me spending my time doing the data, right? Right. So if you're fortunate enough to have a team, you want to make sure you have both. I'm gonna give you an example. When my wife and I got married, we decided we wanted to be a one-car family. And so we went to the we went to the car lot, we walked on the car lot, and I immediately saw the car I wanted. It was the right color, I liked the style, it had all the stuff in it, and said, I want that. Her response was, oh no. We need three months of looking at consumer reports, we need to go do five test drives of other cars and make sure we're getting the most efficient, effective car that we can get, right? Oh my. So we decided instead of becoming divorced, that we would be a two-car family. Well, we see that happening all the time in development, in development shops, where they've hired good people, but they've got them in the wrong places and they don't have the big vision, and they don't use vocabulary that's motivating and stimulating. I love the science and soul, I love magic and you know, and logic, right? And I like to see, we like to see our clients using that kind of words talking about their their job assignments, and it's um, and it's really, really productive. Now, what's really difficult is if you're a one-person shop, sure, and you know, in most nonprofits, there's more of those than there are the others. Yeah. So, what you got to do is analyze what it is that you have to do into two two divisions. I've got the left brain work I got to do, I got the right brain work I got to do, and you have to compartmentalize and you have to be in different environments, right? So when I have my left brain work, I got to get done, I want to be totally focused, I want to be in a quiet environment, I want my computer in front of me, I want the data in front of me, and I'm gonna close my office door. But when it's time for me to be in my right thinking, I want to be outside or I want to be standing up, I want to be in front of a whiteboard, I want to I want a marker in my hand, I want to play music for me. That might be classical music. For others, it could be Taylor Swift music. Whatever it is that motivates the creativity, I want to be in that situation. So I have to say from eight to ten today, I'm gonna be left brain, and this is the environment I gotta be in. But then later on in the day, I'm gonna move over to right brain and I'm gonna be there. And unfortunately, the left brain always dominates. The left brain activities always dominate because we're restricted by what we think the board wants and the reports that we have to turn in and all this other stuff. And we have a very small time, typically, if you're a one-person shop, yeah, you're running a golf tournament, right? You're not out there building relationships with the key people. So that's that's something that we are just really excited about helping think through those type things with our clients.
SPEAKER_03:That's great. So I'm curious because I so again, I am the right brain person. I know for myself when I have to do left brain activities, which does happen as much as we try to avoid it, everybody has some component of their job that crosses that line, right?
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_03:When I have to do it, I know that what I have the finely honed system I have for myself is that I take my laptop and my my earbuds and I go to my favorite coffee shop, I bribe myself with a a good latte, and I, you know, headphones in, focused on the environment that works for me. Right. And so that to me is something I understand because I can I can focus in and I can narrow down. If somebody's listening to this and they're going, uh the left brain stuff is easy, I can do that all day. I'm curious the what it would look like for somebody in that side of it to be able to understand how to right brain better and give themselves that freedom. Because they're not gonna take their giant whiteboard to the coffee shop and bribe themselves with a latte, right? So, how do we help those folks on the other side?
SPEAKER_00:And believe it or not, um we do a lot of work with community colleges. Okay. And a lot of the community college's presidents come from within, they come out of the workforce development, they come out of student services, they come out of some, they don't come out of fundraising, right? Okay, typically. So then when when they get there and then they're told you are now the public face of this college, and yes, you have to be out there all the time, then we teach them triggers that will allow them to step out of their comfort zone, to do that role like they've got to do. But when they get through with that gala or whatever it is that they're in, we tell them take the next day off because you use so much energy to get out of your comfort zone that you don't have the energy to get back into the left brain world as and be as good as you were. So moving from left to right to right takes a lot of energy. Yes, right? And that's why we say if you're gonna do a gala, have the left brain person the one who's handling the registration desk. Don't have them being one that's supposed to go around and meet people. That's just not you need them there, sure. But give them a role where their left brain fits their comfort zone and put the right brain. We had a young lady at the college I was who had been a character at Disney for eight years. Okay, and she was assistant head of financial aid, right? But when we had Gala Vince, I didn't want her at the registration desk. No, I wanted her work in the room, right? So understanding where your team is, where their natural tendencies are, is a critical part of being able to build the team that's going to be successful. And you got to have the president and CEO, executive director in the mix, and you got to understand where they are in the mix. And they're forced to get outside of their comfort zone all the time.
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SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Right? Because the left-brain folks are gonna prepare the report, they're gonna give you the report, but what I take from it, especially if we're talking specifically about walking into a major gift meeting, the way that I look at that is going to be different. Talk to me a little bit about the the I mean, obviously there's some ways that that those ri things really complement each other, which is great.
SPEAKER_01:Right, right.
SPEAKER_03:But that is also cause for some potential kerfuffle, if you will, right? Between a team. I think I feel like that's a data point that or that's a interpretation that could really tend to maybe cause some conflict. So, how do we approach those things?
SPEAKER_00:So one of the that's one of the reasons that we think everybody's title should have major gift in it. And it's just a major gift officer colon annual fund, major gift officer colon research, major gift officer colon, whatever. And then we got to train the team about how high wealth people are major gift owners think. So the person who's doing the research needs to know that they're doing the research, not to give to the major gift officer, they're doing the research so that we can get a gift. And so, what we want to I interviewed the one of the wealthiest men in North Carolina a couple of years ago, and I asked him if he would teach me to think like a wealthy person. Oh, interesting. Right? And so he said, Yeah, I got a bunch of people, I got about 10 of folks come to see me every month asking me for money. And every time they're presenting a proposal to me, I'm always thinking the same thing. And it doesn't matter what institution, how long they've been doing it, how old they are, I'm always thinking the same thing. And I said, What's that? And he said, How stupid they are. And I would say, I said, Why would you say that? He said, He says, Because it's always about them and never about me. He said, Bill, every wealthy person loves art and music. No development person should ever go see a high wealth person on the first visit and not know what art and music they like. So interesting. But how many people who are putting together the data know that that's an important thing to know? Sure. So we got to train the data people to think from a major gift officer's perspective, not from the major, I mean, from the major gift donor's perspective, not from the major gift officer's perspective. You know, it doesn't matter. I said, what does it matter that I know where your children went to college and all this stuff? I said, that doesn't matter at all. All I want to know is that you know me. Right? And interesting. So it's it's that's why I think everybody has to be trained in this thinking about major gifts. If in fact you buy into the fact that it takes a lot of hundred dollar gifts to get a million, and where is your team spending their time and energy? Right?
SPEAKER_03:That's such an interesting reframing. I I actually really like that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's great.
SPEAKER_00:So we have a magic question, Megan, that we train our the people that work for us to ask the first time they've they're with the major gift prospect.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Because what we really want to know is what's their heart? What gives them joy? And so the the question that we train our our clients to ask is, and I'll ask you, Megan, I'll just ask you this question. I want you to answer, I want you to answer. Megan, what was your favorite childhood toy?
SPEAKER_03:Oh, so I really loved Rainbow Bright.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Rainbow Bright was my favorite, and I had all I had like the big stuffed doll of her, and then all the little plastic figurines, the all Rainbow Bright. That's my girl.
SPEAKER_00:And what was it about Rainbow Bright that excited you?
SPEAKER_03:I love so all each color had its own person. I'm not how familiar you are with the world.
SPEAKER_00:I got four dollars.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so you're with me. Yeah, so I loved that world of color and the beauty that came with it, and each color having its own personality. Loved it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So what you've just done is show me your heart and your joy. Right? Because what happens every time we ask that question of a major gift donor, they think, oh, yeah. Then they get a big smile, then they start talking with their hands. Yes. And what we're doing is listening to the vocal their vocabulary. So when I come back to you down the road with a proposal, I'm going to be talking to you about all the different personalities we have in our nonprofit. And what's one of the challenges is they have no place to plug in that will allow the light to turn on in their world so that they can go out and make a difference. So I'm using your vocabulary and your childhood toy to build the relationship. Now, how many researchers understand that? I have to imagine very few. Correct. And so what we've got to do is to go all the way back from hey, this also needs to be a part of what we're delivering in our annual, in our annual fund. This is this needs to be the language that we use as we move forward into this world. And so that's that's why we that's why we call ourselves disruptors.
SPEAKER_03:But that's so interesting.
SPEAKER_00:It's really having an impact and it's really making a difference, and it's it's just so much fun. So the so going back to one other key, you got to hire the right people. Right. Yes, and we think the key to that, and my development psychologist uncovered this. The key is in most cases we're asking the wrong questions. Right. So, for instance, we know that whenever a person's gone through a childhood trauma, one of two things typically happen when they become adults. They either become addicts and they use drugs and alcohol and other things to help hide their pain, or they become incredibly resistant, persistent, and they're not afraid of anything. Right? But that's an important uh insight to know when you're hiring somebody. Yeah, we can teach somebody how to raise money, but to teach somebody to be resistant, to be teach somebody to be persistent, to teach somebody to do that type of is different. So asking the different questions is so it's really creating a whole different culture of a uh development operation that we think is important going into the future.
SPEAKER_03:That's so good. I'm I'm thinking back to there's a an organization that I used to work with years and years ago. I actually don't even think they're in existence anymore, and maybe this is why. But their development team, uh especially around major gift specifically, was all I feel like the frat bros who knew how to play golf. Every one of them was cookie cutter, the same personality, the same uh manner of speaking, the same just everything about them was cookie cutter mold the whole way down. And it's interesting now to hear you talk about that. One of the things that always struck me as I was working with them was, you know, I don't know that I would send any of them to go talk to somebody, you know, to a woman, for example. Right, because they just didn't seem to have that emotional intelligence to be able to carry on an actual conversation about anything then other than the sports scores. And I it always struck me, and now I'm able to, based on our conversation, put some thought to there's such a beauty in diversity of thought and diversity of personality, instead of just hiring people who think like us.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly right.
SPEAKER_03:Right?
SPEAKER_00:That's so important. It's very, very important. It's also what we call the barber strategy, it's understanding the barber strategy. So if I've got you in my portfolio, but I am self-aware enough to know that I might not be the right person to go to the next level in the conversation, then I have to find what we call Barbara, that person who can go in my place or go with me to tie into that person's personality. And that's where we're thinking I think we're missing one of the greatest assets we have is our board members. Our board members, we need to know their personalities, we need to know their strengths, we need to have them committed to go with us to see donors when they are the right person more so than we are. So there's you know, there's a lot of ownership in our in our profession. We got a part we got a portfolio and we own it. Yes. We don't want anybody else involved because if we get a gift, they might get credit and not us. Sure. But that's not what makes successful fundraisers. You got to use your assets. We say to colleges one of your greatest assets is your faculty. There's nothing that a high wealth, you know, high wealth people, you've if you're gonna build a relationship with them, you gotta give them some things they can't buy. And what's one of those is a dinner with a faculty member who's an expert in a particular topic that I enjoy. So we like these small intimate gatherings where we we get to know the donor enough to know that they're interested in poetry. So we put together and invite the our Shakespeare expert to come have dinner with them and talk about what they're doing. So maximizing the assets that you have. I can't stand it when development people say I don't have enough resources to do what you're talking about. No, they gotta get out of that what they're doing is thinking left brain, which is expenses, instead of right brain, which is investments. Sure. Right?
SPEAKER_03:Well, and I think too, when we look at we have to get out of the mindset of a of viewing it as a competition. Right. Right? I'm not necessarily competing when we create a team, and maybe that is a little more on the right brain side, when I'm creating a team that is viewing it as competing against each other to accomplish their individual goals instead of looking at the overarching goal, I do think we set ourselves up for failure.
SPEAKER_00:And you know, it's very it's very seldom that I've seen resumes of people who are fundraisers who are trying to go to another job. They'll talk about how much money they raised. I don't think anybody raises money. No. I want to know what the team raised. Yes. And what was your role in the team? Yes. Right. And that's that's the that's who I want to hire is the team players who are on there for the team. And that's how you get you get that's how you get new jobs and opportunities.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, absolutely. Oh, this is so interesting. So, Bill, before we move to close, I do want to ask one question about this. So if somebody's listening and they are either maybe the head of development, VP of advancement, sitting in that kind of leadership role, if they're thinking, man, you know what, I did just hire all cookie cutters of myself, or man, my team is super left-brained and we don't have the personality side, um are there ways that leaders can, without just firing half your staff and rehiring new people, are there ways that we can encourage that like to think on the other side? Are there where are there ways that we as leaders can encourage our team to think from the other point of view and to kind of hone those skills a little bit to diversify what we've got in the bullpit there?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so yes. So the first thing is you got you got to be very self-aware of who your team is and what their strengths are. Then you gotta, then you gotta put in front of them this is what we've got to do to be successful. We call it the nine puzzle pieces for fundraising success. And we have those nine puzzle pieces, and we say, we've got to get all nine of these things done, even though this is not our our expertise. Okay. Right? So who's gonna do what? And how are we gonna help each other get this done? And then you compartmentalize, and so you you say to a person, I'm gonna ask you to do this job. I only want you working on it one hour a day because I know that's outside your comfort zone, and that's gonna take you more time, and then we're here to help you if you need help along the way. But if you do it one hour a day and that's 20 20 days a month, that's 20 hours you would be spending doing something you don't really want to do, but we gotta have in order to be successful, right? So we see breaking it down into what we call small victims, okay. And getting out of your comfort zone is a victory.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. I love that.
SPEAKER_00:And you gotta pat yourself on the back. We call them blizzard moments, and whenever somebody gets out of their comfort zone and successful, then go to Dairy Queen and get a blizzard. You gotta celebrate. Yeah, we've gotta have fun and what we're doing.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I love that. Um, so real quick before as we're wrapping up, tell us a little bit about Bright Dot and the the organization that you or the organizations that you work with.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. So we we work with, we typically say we work with underdogs. Those are organizations that don't have the resources and the perks that other organizations around them have. So I'm I live in Raleigh, North Carolina, in the middle of the triangle, and we've got Duke Carolina and uh NC State right here.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And they got all kinds of perks at a university. Oh. So how do you compete? How do you compete against them? So we do, we do, we've worked with 45 community colleges the last couple of years. We've worked with major universities. And I think if you're looking for a new way to get larger results, then we're somebody you should look at. Because we're gonna we're gonna get you thinking differently. We're gonna try to get you energized. We're gonna talk about emotional intelligence. You know, we certainly know about portfolios and we know how to do legacy society. Matter of fact, the person on my team, we have 14 people on our team. The person who does our legacy work founded and started the plan giving program at St. Jude's Hospital. Oh wow. So we know what we're doing. I was a college president. Absolutely. I was a college president. We know what we're doing. But we gonna we call ourselves artists. We want to bring the art into the science of fundraising. And so that's what we that's what we're about. And we teach them to ask crazy questions like childhood toys and things brilliant. They've never thought of before. Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, brilliant. I love that one. So good. Okay, so as we close, the question that I have been asking everyone, every guest so far this season, you know, uh obviously nonprofits are regularly under the gun and regularly taking on the tough work. This year they have certainly had their fair share, maybe more than their fair share, of discouragements and upset. So if you were to offer one piece of wisdom or encouragement to nonprofit leaders at this particular point in time, what would that be? What would that come what would that look like?
SPEAKER_00:The power of ten deep breaths. We have a performance psychologist on our team who for a while trained the trained the special forces to jump out of airplanes, knowing that when they hit the ground in Afghanistan, they were going to be shot at with machine guns. And I said, Well, gosh, that's like being a major gift officer. It's the same emotions. I said, How do you do that? She said, through 10 deep breaths. Whenever you're feeling anxious, whenever you something's happened, just sit back, close your eyes, take 10 deep breaths, and then get on with it.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:That's what we think is part of the part of the magic.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, I love that. And I will certainly be putting it into practice myself.
SPEAKER_00:It works.
SPEAKER_03:I'm sure. I'll let you know how it goes.
SPEAKER_00:Good.
SPEAKER_03:Well, Bill, thank you. This conversation has been really interesting. It's certainly a different approach to team and also to major gifts. So I really appreciate all of your wisdom and insight. Thanks for being here today.
SPEAKER_00:I loved it, Megan. And um, our our why at Bright God is to impact 100 million lives over the next 10 years. And we do that by empowering nonprofits to have more revenue so they can serve more people. And that ripple effect. And we'll never know if we get to 100 million lives, but we know we're making a difference in the groups.
SPEAKER_03:That's awesome. And there's nothing better than that.
SPEAKER_00:That's right.
SPEAKER_03:You can go to sleep at night knowing that you have impacted the world for good. There's nothing more rewarding.
SPEAKER_00:Especially in the world we're living in right now, right?
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. Bill, thank you so much. Uh again, my guest, uh, my guest today has been Bill Crouch, who's the CEO of Bright Dot. My name is Megan Speer. I'm the executive director here at Nonprofit Hub and the host of the Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast. We'll see you next time.