Nonprofit Hub Radio
Whether starting a nonprofit or taking an existing cause to the next level, The Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast is about breaking down how nonprofits can grow. Each episode features an interview with a sector star with insight, stories, or ideas that can take your nonprofit from good to excellence. Join host Meghan Speer every week to make your good go further!
Nonprofit Hub Radio
Build A Board People Actually Want To Join
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Ever wonder why some boards feel alive, focused, and productive while others stall out in meetings and rubber-stamp decisions? In this episode, we're joined by Debra Hertz, Managing Director at The Strategy Group, who unpacks a practical roadmap for turning any board into a true strategic asset—from first contact in recruitment to the cadence of training, evaluation, and culture-building that keeps trustees engaged for the long haul. As hosts, we press into the hard truths: vague expectations create passive members, “fundraise-only” mindsets repel great candidates, and friends-and-family boards can lock you into short-term thinking. The fix is a board experience people genuinely want to join.
If you want a board that thinks strategically, opens doors, and protects the mission with courage, this conversation gives you the tools to start today. Subscribe, share this with a fellow nonprofit leader, and leave a review with the one change you’ll make to strengthen your board this quarter.
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Speaker 1:Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast. I'm your host, Megan Speer, joined today by Deborah Hertz, who's the managing director of the strategy group. And we are going to be digging into a topic that there is no nonprofit, it does not affect. The board is the be all and end-all for some organizations in terms of whether they're going to sink or swim. And I am excited to hear Deborah's take on this today. So Deborah, welcome in.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, Megan.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm excited to dig in. So tell us a little bit about your background and kind of the work that you do that brought us to the conversation today.
Speaker 2:Terrific. So I have been in nonprofits for millennia, it seems like, for a long time. And I did a lot of agency work and leadership and agencies. I was executive director of a large private foundation. I have both my MSW and my PhD in social work. So nonprofits are just, they are very much part of the life that I live. As I say, I don't know a lot about a lot, but I know a lot about nonprofits. And I have been in executive positions in organizations, in philanthropy, and have also done a lot of board work. And when I was leaving the foundation about 15 years ago, I decided that I was going to see if there was a market for the areas where I felt I was strong and focused on planning, on governance, on leadership transitions and executive searches. And our team has grown and we work nationally with nonprofits in those areas that are in our wheelhouse. So it's something it's I love nonprofits. I love them.
Speaker 1:I would not be in this role if I did not.
Speaker 2:Yes, me too, Megan.
Speaker 1:So good. So I was in a conversation with someone. I was at a conference last week, and I was talking to them about just kind of some, they're an executive director of a smaller organization, was talking to them about some of the challenges they're facing. Um every time it's I want to they want to complain about the board, right? Every executive director wants to complain about the board. And I was struck by the idea. What she said about hers was people are treating it as if it's just a resume builder and not they're not, they want to be able to say that they're on the board of this organization, right? Without actually doing any of the work to be on the board, right? They just want to, it's a nice resume boost to say that I'm a part of this. I'd love to start the conversation with when we're looking at the board, how do we weed out? Right? There's so many people who I think from a recruitment standpoint, and we're gonna get into board recruitment, but maybe don't have the right attitude even coming into it, right? How do we prevent that from the jump?
Speaker 2:Okay. I think that a lot of that falls on the organization. Okay. The organization has to have clear expectations of board members coming in. They need to let board members what it know what it means to be on their board and what kind of time commit commitment, what kind of work they need to be willing to do. So the board needs to really look at itself. And oftentimes boards have a one-pager saying these are the board expectations. If you come, if you're with us, we expect not just that you attend meetings, although we expect that. We expect not that just that you give money, although we expect that, but we expect these other areas as well. And I also think it's incredibly important for organizations to know the skills that they have on their board and the skills that they need on their board, so that they are not just inviting people to warm a seat, but they are inviting people to play a function.
Speaker 1:So good. I think so often, even organizations that I've worked with or been a part of, we're missing that component. Right. They don't need because I feel like a lot of times even organizations that I've sat on their board, I didn't know what my purpose was. Right? I had no idea why I was there. And I'm giving up my time and I'm giving up my resources, and I'm I'm sitting there, but no one is necessarily asking about my expertise that I could help with. And I do bring a lot of nonprofit background, so in theory, I could be very helpful. Yeah, so I think that's that's an interesting place to start as like a first step.
Speaker 2:I think sometimes it's interesting that organizations almost feel guilty inviting people to be on their board.
unknown:Really?
Speaker 2:Like, I mean, I know it's a lot of work, I know you know, you have to, and instead you have to change your mindset. And this is an important role that you can play. Yeah, this is you can make an enormous difference in your community by serving on this board. And I think that potential board members, when somebody, when an organization comes to you and asks you to serve on the board, the question I always ask when organizations ask me is why me? What do I add to your board that isn't already there? And if they can't answer that, that says something to me. So I think organizations need to do their homework and their pre-work in order to build a strong and engaged board.
Speaker 1:So we were talking before we hit record to start, we were talking about the topic a little bit, and you posed the question that I thought was so interesting, which is why would anyone want to serve on this board? That's right. And I would, I'm not generally a betting woman, but I would put money on the fact that nine that at best, 99% of organizations have never asked themselves this question. That's right. I'd be willing to give it 100, but I'm I'm gonna, you know, hedge a little bit. But what a valuable question. So talk about that a little bit and the importance of that specific question.
Speaker 2:Yes. So I work with many boards, and one of the one of the things I talk to the boards about is you want to be a board of choice. You want to be the board where people want to that people want to be on. In order for people to want to be on your board, there need to be clear expectations. There need to be, you need to engage people well, you need to orient them well. And I say the best boards that I've ever served on are the boards where I am smarter leaving that board than when I came into that board. Because of what I have learned from being on that board. And so you as a board, you as an organization can train your board. Teach them what do high-performing boards do. What you want to do is it's almost like working out. You need to work out consistently, and so you're strong. Organizations need to have that mindset that they can't just sit back and say, okay, this is the board, and this is what we need them to do. We need them to raise money. Well, if that's the only thing you want your board to do, you're gonna have a hard time finding board members. Yeah. You need it needs to be a much fuller menu than that.
Speaker 1:So we do have within our our listening audience. I know we have a lot of folks who are kind of in in the startup, right? They're getting ready to form, they're just filing for 501c3 status, they're listening to us because they're trying to learn and get it right. In an ideal scenario, if if that's if you're talking to someone in that position because they have a blank slate, they can blue sky start from scratch to build a board. And I nine times out of ten, the mistake I see made is they pool their next door neighbor and their cousin and their college roommate and some guy down the street because these are the people that are in their circle who want, and they're they're all well-intentioned people, they want to be supportive.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:If somebody was starting from absolute scratch, what who are the kind of people that we're looking for? How do we instead of just taking the hands that raise, right? How do we start well to set the board up for success long term? Okay.
Speaker 2:A lot of things to unpack in that question, Megan. Number one, I think that it really is helpful if you are starting an organization to educate yourself and to educate yourself of the roles and responsibilities of great boards. And also educate yourself on what mediocre or bad boards do. Okay. And there's plenty of information out there. Um, number two, it is really common and natural for organizations to start with a family and friends board. And those are the family and friends, usually of the founders. Okay. That's natural. I get it. What you can do though is whatever issue you are involved in, look at the people outside of your core group who are who are really committed to that, committed to what you're doing. And then go talk to them. Now don't go talk to them and say, hey, I'm starting this organization. You want to be on the board? Right. Okay. That's a recipe for potential disaster for many reasons. But talk to them about why they're interested. What organizations do they think are doing a great job? Are there people you should be talking to about this issue? And I think that in by having those conversations and not just a one-and-done, you're going to be able to find other people who have a commitment to your mission and may add some skill that is outside of your circle of family and friends. If you start with a board of family and friends, that's okay, that's life. But make a goal that within the first year, so quickly, you want to identify people who could serve on your board that are outside of your inner circle.
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Speaker 1:Something that I find to be frustrating is a lack of collaboration between organizations who are doing the same thing. So when I hear you say, you want to go talk to the people who are passionate about it, who are already doing it, my natural inclination, because I tend to be a collaborative person, is like, okay, but how can we work together? Whereas a lot of people tend to either the other organizations don't want to talk to them because we don't, I don't want to give away my my secrets, right? I don't want to, I don't want to show my hand, if you will. How do we make sure? Or can you speak to that of as we're trying to get those people who are also passionate about that thing that we're doing?
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:How do we, is there a way to approach that conversation that fosters a spirit of collaboration instead of a spirit of like, oof, nope, I don't wanna, I don't wanna, I don't want you to take my stuff or my people or my idea.
Speaker 2:Okay, yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, because that was my initial reaction to your statement. It's like, oh man, that sounds great. But we don't do that very often.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I am a hundred percent with you, Megan. I am all for collaboration. Yes. I think that organizations need to start, and their true north for everything they do must be what is best, what is in the best interest of the people we serve, of the people that we are trying to serve. Preach, yes, okay, that is it. And what is in the best interest is that people know each other, that they work together, that you do what you do best, your superpower, do it, but I want access to it. And my superpower, come because the bottom line has to be what is best for the people that we serve. And that it is very hard at times to take ego out of the equation. Yes. And uh, but I think, and again, with organizations that I work with, and especially it when we do work with organizations that are merging, which is a very interesting thing, yeah, is uh the first meeting we have with uh the committee of both organizations. I say you have to commit that the decisions that you make are going to be in the best interest of the people with blank, you fill in the blank. And I will tell you that by saying that at the beginning, what it does is it allows you to reframe, and so boards need to look at that as well and keep that in mind. Leadership, staff leadership needs to keep that in mind.
Speaker 1:So good. I yeah, that is a hill that I will plant my flag on because we could do so much more together instead of this attitude of competition, the collaboration. And it would be so great if that would start with the boards. But I feel like so often it's board-driven that we don't want to this is our thing and we don't want to partner. Yeah, and that is that has to come from the board down.
Speaker 2:It does. And I think that if what you are doing is you have an organization that airs more on the side of competition than the than collaboration, what you have to remember is that speaks to your culture. And what does that say about your organizational culture? And is that the culture that you are interested in?
Speaker 1:Oh, so good. I oh, this is you are speaking my language, Deborah. I I have found a kindred spirit for sure. Oh, that's so good. So there might be in the audience, because I know that we have some folks who are newer to executive leadership, um if someone is in that role and has found themselves in a position where they have kind of inherited a board, where maybe that is the culture where they have that kind of that kind of mindset. Is it possible to turn that board culture as a new leader, or is it time to just cut them all and start over?
Speaker 2:So cutting them all and starting over is really difficult. Yeah. So what you have to do is you have to start with where your board is. Okay. And if you were to, if, if I've worked with many organizations in exactly this space, and I will tell you the process I have worked with many of them on. Number one, you start with a board training, and you start with a board training on high performing boards, and what that does is that elevates the conversation. You are not saying you are a bad board or whatever, you're not criticizing your board, just you're saying these are what high performing boards do right now, which is different than what they did 10 years ago, 20 years ago. And in that training, which when I do it, it is a training and a conversation. Because you look at, you know, we have a uh I have a PowerPoint, and you look at, okay, these are the elements of a high performing board. What do you guys do really well? What don't you do really well? Okay, so that's step one. And so at the end, everyone feels educated and a little more invested because they can see themselves clearly. Number two is then because this is sort of a series, this is not a one and done. A one and done training for a board that is is not as highly functional as they should be, is not going to do anything except. Cost the organization money. So step two is you do a board survey. But you don't do a board survey light, you do a real board survey. And the survey that we look at that we use has two parts to it. Part one is we ask for their name, we ask for their skills, their interests, and where they have community connections so that you can create a matrix of where your board is right now. Okay. The second part is the board engagement part and the board self-assessment part, gauging their engagement and also having them evaluate the board as it is right now.
Speaker 1:And do they do that part anonymously or do they put their name on that second part as well?
Speaker 2:They well, it's one survey, okay, but the nobody sees the individual surveys. Okay. And we say, okay, here's where you guys are, based on you, not based, we're not judging you, based on you. So then we have the conversation. So what needs to change? What are your strategic priorities for the next six months for the next year? You know, what's it's something that comes up a lot. We have no term limits. Okay. Again, you want to be a board of choice. It's hard to be a board of choice when half of your board has been there for 25 years. Yeah. Absolutely. And so you, but it's you're not judging. I'm not as the the consultant coming in and scolding, nor is the staff leadership. We're letting them have the conversation. And we're letting, and they are the ones creating the priorities and the goals. And then we can help them. And we often do this through work directly with the board chair and the executive leadership. It makes sure they're actually doing what they said they were going to be doing. But again, this is not a four-week process. This is a longer process. Yeah. And so you have to own that it's going to take time. And you have to measure the small wins. You have to acknowledge and celebrate the small wins.
Speaker 1:That's so good. Deborah, this whole conversation has been fantastic. And I think given folks some really practical things to think about, no matter what, no matter what phase they're in. So I really appreciate all of your wisdom. If somebody wanted to learn more or connect with the strategy group or with you, what's the best way for us to learn about the work that you do and how we could could maybe engage that?
Speaker 2:Sure. Our website is the strategygrouplc.org. Again, it's the strategygroup llc.org. If you wanted to get in contact with me, my email is DWHertz at the strategygrouplc.org.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. And is there a specific like kind of type of nonprofit that you guys work most often with? Or what's your what's your normal engagement look like?
Speaker 2:So it there's not a typical nonprofit that we work with. We work with startups. We work with, you know, I think we've worked with 100,000 to 750 million. Most of them are not on either side of that. And so I think that it's the size doesn't matter as much. I think what everyone, the commonality is that you want to be, it it sounds so trite. The best that you can be. And again, going back, you want to be the best that you can be because the people you serve deserve the best that they can have.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I love that. Okay, so as we close out, the question that I've been asking everyone in this season, as we're kind of looking at 2026 here as the year of professional development or personal development, human development, if you will. Yes. What is a book that has really impacted you that you would recommend everybody check out? It could be business-wise, it could be personal, it could be professional development, whatever you want to pick. The floor is yours.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to go business or professional development. Okay, I'm going to go sweet. Oh, I love that. I just finished the book Theo of Golden by Alan Levi. And it is one of the sweetest books that I have ever read in a time that is not very sweet. Yeah. That, and in fact, this morning, right before I got in the call with you, Megan, I went online and I, in a from a bookstore, an independent bookstore, because I'm a big fan of them in Alabama. I bought a signed hardback copy of this book because I want to keep it. It's so great. My my paperback I'm giving away because I want so many people to read it. And so I just loved this book.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. I will definitely be adding that to my reading list. Really, I'm asking this question so that I can film mine. I think if everyone else gets something out of it, great. But it also gives me well, you know what?
Speaker 2:A couple of years ago, Megan, what I did was I committed to reading 52 books in 52 weeks. Yep. Okay. Now I will be honest with you, November and December books were on the short side, but I did it. And it was is it was just a fun exercise.
Speaker 1:It is. I so I'm I'm on Goodreads, I'm part of a book club, and we all set our goals. So I did 56 last year, which was two, which was one over my goal, which was amazing. So we're yeah, we're gonna shoot for 55 again this year. Go for it. So good. And so I I would love for you to email me or tell me what book is you is your book? What do you love? Oh my goodness, there's so many good ones. But I did just finish one at the end at the end of last year that's called The Songbook of Benny Lament. It's a uh novel, one of the the best written stories I've read in a really long time. It was I was songbook? S-U-N uh S-O-N-G. Oh, okay The Songbook of Benny Lament. Uh one of the best written stories I've read in a long time. I highly recommend. I will get it today. Yes. It's a good one.
Speaker 2:Great.
Speaker 1:Deborah, thank you so much. This conversation has been fantastic, and I know it's gonna give our audience a lot of really good nuggets to chew on and start this year off with a good board, and a healthy board that is moving their organization in the right direction. So thank you so much. Thank you so much. It has been a pleasure, Megan. This has been another episode of the Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast. I'm your host, Megan Spear, and we'll see you next time.