The Fundraising Flywheel: How to Raise Funds Without Feeling “Icky”

Feeling uneasy about asking for money? In this episode, we sit down with Mike Duerksen, CEO of BuildGood, to break down a simple flywheel that takes the pressure off the ask and builds trust through the parts most teams skip: listening deeply, engaging like a real community, celebrating every gift, and reporting back with honesty. When those four pieces are strong, asking becomes a natural next step instead of a nerve-wracking leap.

We also share how the Fundraising Academy blends coaching, cohorts, and live copy sessions so EDs and solo fundraisers can build pattern recognition and confidence faster. If you want asking to feel earned—and you want donors to feel seen, effective, and connected—this framework will help you install a sustainable rhythm that grows loyalty and revenue. If this conversation sparks ideas, follow the show, share it with a colleague, and leave a quick review to tell us which part of your flywheel you’ll strengthen next.

Transcript

Welcome & Guest Background

Speaker 2 0:00

Marketing Support Network is proud to serve the nonprofit community by offering full service contact center fulfillment, digital marketing, and fundraising services. Your vision is our mission, and we can't wait to partner with you. Visit Marketing Support Network.com for more information.

Speaker 3 0:18

Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast. I'm your host, Megan Speer, joined today by Mike Dirksen, who's the co-founder of Fundraising Academy, also the founder of uh Build Good. He is a fantastic entrepreneur. Excited to have you here. Mike, welcome in.

Speaker 1 0:34

Megan, thanks for having me. So nice to uh get to spend a bit of time with you here.

Speaker 3 0:38

I know. Always I'm always excited to get our Canadian friends onto the podcast because we have so many listeners in Canada that I feel like all we do is talk to Americans. So I'm excited to have you in here today so that our Canadian friends get a little bit of nice love.

Speaker 1 0:54

Uh-huh.

unknown 0:54

Huh.

Speaker 3 0:55

So, Mike, tell us a little bit about yourself and kind of your background that brought us to the conversation today.

Speaker 1 1:01

Uh I've been a fundraiser and a marketer for for years and years before starting BuildGood. And I never wanted to be in fundraising. When I took my first marketing job at a nonprofit, I in fact asked to not report to Director of Development. I was like, can I report to the CEO? And I came to love fundraising over time. I was wrong in my early years of thinking fundraising was kind of icky and kind of like this thing where we like wrangle people and and like harass them into giving money. Because those were some of the examples, I guess, that I had sometimes seen. I started BuildGood really out of a desire to create a teaching hospital. So our mission is to be a teaching hospital. Teaching hospitals do two things. Number one is they take really good care of patients, and number two is they teach doctors. And so we created this agency called BuildGood, and we work with medium-sized and larger organizations. And then we take everything that we're learning. Um, we take good care of our clients, and everything we're learning with them, we turn around and we teach it to as many fundraisers as possible through the fundraising academy. So that's that's our mission. That's what uh that's why we get up every day.

Speaker 3 2:14

I love it. Okay, and that is kind of the conversation that we're gonna dig into today. And I love that you use the word icky to describe fundraising because I think you're not alone. There's like a an unfortunate attitude of like it's a necessary evil, it's just kind of gross, I don't want to do that. But I think that's a really nice segue into something we were talking about as we got started here, which is I think it's because asking makes people feel uncomfortable. But you you work within something called the fundraising flywheel, where asking is just a tiny part of it, right? So I wonder if we can help other people make it feel less icky. Sure. If we can dig into that. So let's start with what is a fundraising flywheel and how can we do other things so that we're asking less and don't feel as icky about our work.

The Five-Part Fundraising Flywheel

Speaker 1 3:07

Yeah, that is the uh that's the perfect setup. If by the end of this conversation, you, dear listener, will feel a little bit less icky about asking, I will have considered that a huge success. So we have a framework that we use in fundraising, and it's really just a way to help organizations plan their fundraising and understand fundraising in a way that helps them feel a lot more confident about their fundraising. We call it the fundraising flywheel. It's got five parts. Yes, asking is a big part, but it's only one of the five parts. The other parts are listening to donors, engaging them in meaningful ways, asking the right people for the right things, celebrating every gift at every level, and then reporting back in in like a real-time and responsive way. And if you follow that pattern, and we can get into that, but if you sort of follow that rhythm, it's a cadence, it's a rhythm, it's an operating system you can install in your organization, then asking is one-fifth of the equation. And if you've listened, if you've engaged donors, if you've thanked them really well, and if you've reported back, I don't think you would feel icky asking because you have earned the right to ask again. It's when asking feels really icky, maybe maybe it's because we haven't quite earned the right to ask again. Maybe we haven't thanked and reported back. Uh, and maybe that's maybe that's in the back of our mind a little bit, or it's like I feel like I'm always just asking. So that's that's a rhythm of five different fundraising activities. We can get into each of those, but but that's the broad strokes why we call it a fundraising flywheel. And really, a flywheel, the point of a flywheel. I don't know if if people listening necessarily know what a flywheel is.

Speaker 3 4:53

I I'm gonna be honest, I don't know that I could like if you asked me to draw you a picture of a flywheel right now, I'm not sure that I could complete that task.

What A Flywheel Actually Is

Speaker 1 5:01

All right, so uh I actually grew up I grew up in uh like a rural village in South America, and we didn't, it was like pretty off the grid, and everything ran on diesel generators essentially. And uh a diesel generator is just an engine, and every engine has a big flywheel at the end, it's a big metal steel plate. And the point of it is once the engine is running and up to speed, the flywheel stores a lot of momentum and makes it a lot easier for the engine to run. And if you shut that engine off, it's gonna run on its own for a little bit because that big heavy steel plate keeps the engine in motion for a bit. Now, you can think of a flywheel as a merry-go-round in a playground. And uh, those of you who have kids, they want to go on this thing and they're like, hey, dad, mom, push me. At first, it's a big heavy metal plate. At first, you're using both of your hands, you're applying pressure and you're getting it going, and it's it seems really hard. And momentum is hard to come by. But you apply lots of pressure a few times with both hands, all of a sudden this thing is spinning, it's got a bit of momentum. Now you can just now you're just like switching to one hand, and it gets faster and faster. Eventually, this thing has so much momentum. There's kids flying off left, right, and center, they're hanging on for dear life. And you can keep that thing at high speed with basically one finger, because the flywheel has gained so much momentum, has su it's storing so much momentum that it just keeps going. That's why we're calling it a flywheel. It takes a bit to spin up, but once it's spinning, it has momentum.

Speaker 3 6:41

I am gonna make a confession. If I were to have to draw you a picture of a flywheel, that is not even close to what I would have done. And I think that I just fell into some stereotypes because pres knowing that you are from Canada, I didn't know the South America part, but knowing that you are from Canada, my presumption was that it had something to do with fly fishing, because I feel like I just envision all of you in rivers fly fishing regularly.

Speaker 1 7:08

I don't know if you can see that poster behind me. It's like a fly fishing poster.

Speaker 3 7:12

I just I assumed it was something to do with that, and I so I have learned something myself on the podcast today, which is great.

Speaker 1 7:18

Yeah, everything is either a fly fishing analogy or a hawk analogy, right?

Celebration Versus Generic Thank-Yous

Speaker 3 7:22

Yeah. I maybe that's presumptuous on my part or living into stereotypes, but for sure. Okay, so I want to talk about something that you said within that mechanism, and I feel like you know, the more I talk to organizations, we're getting much better about reporting back. We're not great, but we're making a lot of progress in that one. The thing that I see skipped all the time is that celebration piece. Are we celebrating the $100,000, the $50,000, the million-dollar gift? Absolutely. Are we celebrating this nice little old lady down the street who came on at $10 a month? Probably not. So talk to me about the importance of celebration and like for somebody who like I'm gonna I'm gonna put myself into this category, right? I am pretty results, like a pretty results-driven individual. I'm a get-it done task, let's go, super focus type A kind of person. The other things in that in the flywheel that you have established make sense to me. Of course, I need to report back. Of course, I need to be asking people for the right amount of money. Of course, all of these things. Sometimes I feel like celebration takes me out of the rhythm. It almost feels like it stops momentum to to celebrate those kind of things. So provide some talk about some clarity around that. What does it look like and why is it why did you put it into that framework?

Speaker 1 8:54

So we use the word celebration. We could use the word thanking. They are interchangeable, they're one and the same. The reason we use the word celebration is that BJ Fogg, who's a behavioral scientist, um in his work, and he studies how how people create habits, essentially. And in his work, he found that a great way to build a habit personally is every time you do the habit while you're trying to build a habit, is if you do it, if you celebrate it. Because in in your mind, essentially your neurons are firing off and it feels like a reward. And so it doesn't have to be a big celebration, but it's like create a new habit. Every time you do the habit, create some sort of ritual, some sort of celebration where you like celebrate that habit. And eventually there's like a positive correlation in your brain to doing the habit. And we want to do the same with donors for a few reasons. Number one is generosity used to be the social norm, and it's less and less so. What I mean by that is many of us grew up watching our parents write checks on the kitchen table. Some of us grew up in a church pew or in a mosque or in a temple or at the synagogue, whatever, and we saw our parents put things in the collection plate. That was a very visible part of community. Some of us grew up with like community centers where our parents were involved with.

Speaker 3 10:15

Yeah.

Make Generosity Visible Again

Speaker 1 10:16

And generosity as a whole isn't as much the social norm anymore because we've built amazing systems, we've built new pipes, new plumbing to deliver generosity, and it quietly comes off our credit card when nobody sees it. Our kids aren't seeing it. So all of my giving or a lot of my giving is is monthly. Uh my kids don't see me be as generous, even though we're making monthly gifts, they just don't see me do it because I'm not sitting at the kitchen table. So um we need to find ways to a thank donors so so they feel appreciated. We need to find a way to celebrate generosity so it's more public. And so it's more of a it's more of like this is a good thing. It's also thirdly, it's really good for people to be generous. Like it's physically a good thing for them. It's like exercising, it's a good thing for your body. It releases all sorts of chemicals in your body that are that that have like pretty magical powers for your body. And so why shouldn't we celebrate that in order to help people build habits of generosity? Now I I'll I want to end with one more point here, which is okay, I want you all to imagine that you're driving down the highway in your car. Okay, and maybe you're driving to Cos Camp, okay? And um you're on your way to Coscamp, and there's a highway, and you you notice up a up ahead of you on the right side of the road, there's a plume of smoke coming from the ditch. And so you stop, and the car has crashed. It's gone off the road, it's crashed right into the ditch, and it's caught fire. And so this car is on fire. You get out of your car, you run toward the car, you start like you know, looking for your phone in your pockets, you're dialing 911 as you're going to this car, and you notice that a person is trying to climb out of the car. And so you immediately run to them and you drag them out of the car. And you and 911 is okay, we'll be there in five minutes, and this person is bleeding. Maybe you take off your jacket, you uh you like apply a bit of pressure to the wounds, you're not quite sure what to do. But you've saved this person's life. The ambulance comes and takes them away, and you were there to drag them out of a burning car, and you called 911. And the next day, you are still like pretty shaken up about this whole thing.

Speaker 3 12:40

Uh yeah.

Speaker 1 12:41

And you get a call. You get a call from the hospital saying, Hey, this person that you saved yesterday, they actually would like to see you if you're cool with it. And you're like, Okay, uh, so you go down to the hospital, you're not exactly sure what to expect. You walk into the hospital room, this person is all bandaged up, they've got like third-degree burns, but they're alive. And they look at you and they say, On behalf of me and my entire family, I would like to thank you for recently saving my life. If you have any other questions, you can call 1-800-666-3456.

Speaker 3 13:20

This is the best analogy I've ever heard. Yes. Oh my gosh, yes.

Speaker 1 13:24

How often do we ask donors to like save a life? And then we thank them as if they didn't just do that.

Speaker 13:31

Yes.

Speaker 1 13:31

You know, it's just like the most generic, lifeless thank you. So that's why we say celebrating it. Like, treat this like a celebration.

Speaker 3 13:41

That is by far the most graphic and but helpful analogy I've ever heard.

Speaker 1 13:49

Um were really putting yourself in motion.

Speaker 3 13:53

I was thinking really invested there for a minute. But I think you're right. We put so much focus on telling these incredible stories up front, right? That move people to give that show the impact, and we're so good at storytelling on the front half. And man, I that's such a good call out to remember that that donor journey has to carry through the whole way. It doesn't just stop because they gave the gift and you sent them a tax receipt. Because I will admit, I there are organizations that I have given to that I would love a thank you very much for your gift. You know, if you have any questions, call this one 800 number. Because there are times where all I get is a tax receipt that just says, here you go. Like it doesn't even say thank you on it, it's just a for your records. And that, but that piece of the donor journey, man, going back to ask becomes a lot easier if the donor knows that their experience is I'm gonna feel appreciated and valued, and I'm gonna feel more connected because I know what my gift did. Yeah. Oh, that's a call out.

Report Back With Honesty

Speaker 1 15:05

And there's there's real science behind that too. So for people who for for people who say like, yeah, maybe that checks out, but like, is there like is there like some weight behind that? Um, there is. There's something called, uh, you can look it up, it's called self-determination theory. It's basically uh all human beings have three core needs. We all have them, no matter culture, no matter uh generations, no matter like none of that stuff matters. Human beings have three core human needs. Number one is autonomy. We want to feel like the decision to do stuff is our own. We don't like to be pushed into making decisions. Number two is competence. We want to feel competent, like the thing that we did was effective. And number three is relatedness, sometimes called connectedness. We just want to be connected to other people, even like the even some of us who are staunchly independent, even some of us who are like very like on the margins of like, oh, we're like pioneers, even those people they want to have some people that they can relate to. Even like it's like I'm like you, you're like me, we're different from other people together. And so in our in our thanking, in our celebrating, we get to really boost a donor's sense of competence, which is like you did something that matters, you chose to do something that matters, it's going to have a real effect on a person or on a planet or in an animal. We so we get to actually like boost their sense of autonomy and competence by thinking well and also setting some expectations about what's going to happen next.

Speaker 2 16:52

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Speaker 3 17:37

Okay, I'm going to throw the proverbial wrench into the flywheel.

Speaker 17:42

Nice.

Speaker 3 17:44

Because I'm curious what your thoughts and wisdom would be on this. So in an ideal world, that flywheel gets built and it's just spinning and the momentum is going, and we're completing the cycle and completing the cycle to amazing growth. In the real world, there are times when that gift didn't do what you said it was going to do. Right? A program fails. We're not able to the outcomes weren't what we expected them to be. We expected that we were gonna be able to serve a hundred kids and we got four. Like there's there are a lot of chances for the the outcome or the program to kind of interrupt the the donor process, right? So if that's the case and someone finds themselves maybe in a situation where like I have to go back and report and the report isn't great, where does that come into the wheel? Like, what do you how do you what would advice would you give to someone in that situation?

Listening Versus Engaging Donors

Speaker 1 18:50

Yeah, so bad news doesn't get better with time. This is not something that you want to shy away from, it's not something you want to hide, it's not something you want to spin. In the long term, you will always benefit from being transparent and honest and truthful. And reporting back doesn't have to be that you ended world hunger. Reporting back is really about showing donors, hey, I actually think you're an important part of the team. And ask yourself when you're updating your team on stuff, always ask yourself, is this something a donor may want to know? There's a lot of stuff that you're gonna tell your team that isn't maybe for the whole donor audience, but there also is a good amount of stuff that, hey, actually, if donors are an important part of the team, and those words matter. They are important, they're not the only thing that matters. Your staff does a great job. Your beneficiaries put in their own hard work to improve their own situation. Um, so but they're an important part of the team, they're part of the team. It's not all just because of donors, it's partially because of donors, and they're part of a team, a team that is trying to achieve something together. So if donors are important part of the team, I would always err on the side of transparency, truthfulness. We categorize that under reporting back. And just being honest about here's what we thought would happen, here's what actually happened, here's what we learned from it. And I'm grateful that you are such a big part in this. And here's where we want to go next.

Speaker 3 20:23

Yeah. That's great. Okay, so remind me what the beginnings of the flywheel were.

Speaker 1 20:28

It's listen, engage, ask, celebrate, and report.

Speaker 3 20:32

And report back. Okay. So I guess I my first question then is how listen and engage to me sound like the same thing. Right? Can we define the difference?

Speaker 1 20:47

They're very closely related because they're often happening at the same time. Let's talk about listening first. Donors talk to us in two different ways. Number one is they talk to us through their actions, like the things that they do. That often shows up in our data, right? So oh, a lot of donors are not giving to us anymore. That is they're talking to you in a certain way. You can listen to that. Yeah. Now, data can tell you what the data is. Um, see, I use data and data. So I'm covered for the American and Canadian audiences.

Speaker 3 21:22

Yes, Canada and the US.

Simple Metrics Leaders Should Track

Speaker 1 21:24

Um, but it can tell you what the data is. It can't tell you why the data is. So only conversations can do that. So you notice there's an issue in your fundraising. Well, then you go talk to donors and you have a conversation and you listen to what they have to say. Conversations alone are a very low resolution picture because we all know donors will say one thing and maybe act another way. Donors will tell you, you don't need to email me, you don't need to mail me, you don't need to call me, I love you, I'm just gonna give. But every fundraiser knows if we don't have some of those inputs, we just don't get the same results. So conversations alone are low resolution, data alone is low resolution. But conversations can give you some pointers as to where to look and where what to test and what to try, and then the data can validate that for you. So when we're talking about listening, that's what we're talking about. Engaging is very much, I want you to think of engaging. You can use it synonymously as building community. Engagement is not clicks, it's not likes, it's not any of the vanity metrics. Engagement, true engagement, means you have the stuff that makes a community. The stuff that makes a community is common language, it is rhythms, habits, it is communing, having communion, and I don't mean it in a religious sense, although for some people that might apply, but like having communion is there a way for people to gather, can be in person, can be online, but there's got to be some way for people to gather that is relevant to your cause, and it's so cause dependent. Some causes have a much easier time doing this because of the kind of cause that they are. Yeah. But that is the engagement bit.

Speaker 3 23:10

Okay. Okay, so let's presume that we're doing the things. The flywheel is spinning, children are falling off the mayor go round, however, however you want to view it. All the things are happening. If somebody is let's see, because we do have we have, I know within our listening audience, we've got a lot of folks who are executive directors who happen to have to be fundraisers because of the way their organization is set up, right? So they may not have the fundraising staff or like a full-time development director. Or maybe they do. And they're fundraising is something they have to oversee, but they're not they're not necessarily hands-on in the process. As we're looking at it as the momentum is going, as a leader, how do we evaluate its effectiveness? What are your metrics that you're continuing to look at outside of are we raising more money? Right? Because at some point you're either making money or you're not. The organization is moving forward financially or it's not. But are there other metrics within that process or other checkpoints in the in the process where you're like, this piece is out of whack?

Speaker 1 24:26

Yeah, there's a lot of things you could look at, and I don't want to overwhelm your audience. So maybe some we're just talking about some core. Yeah, some kind of high level. Yeah, very high level. I would look at at active donors. Uh, you can do this by quarter, but likely you're gonna do this by year. Active donors basically just tells you if you've done a good job of of encouraging your donors and being in relationship with them. So active donors is a big one. I would look at donor retention, but not overall donor retention. I would look at new donor retention, so and so split retention into new donor retention and then like key multi-year donor retention. The overall retention rate is always going to be a mix between new donors and existing donors, and it's very easy to get the wrong picture there. So your new donor retention is always going to be low. That just is the way it is. I know there's lots of things we can do to improve retention, but a lot of people simply just make a one-time gift. So that's another thing I would look at. There there are there's some stuff that's gonna crop up a few years after you having been consistent. Things like upgrades, things like uh legacy gifts, those are typically downstream from you having been consistent for two to three years. And so you getting planned gifts and thinking, well, we're doing something right, maybe, maybe not. That yeah, yeah, yeah. But those are some things that I would look in, look at a few years down the road. But I just want to keep it super simple for people. Look at active donors, look at new donor retention rate, existing donor retention rate, and net revenue. And if those things are heading in the right direction, chances are you're doing a pretty good job. There are other signals that are leading indicators, um, which is essentially going to be qualitative feedback from donors. And this is vibe check. This is like, are you are you getting positive feedback from donors? Does it seem like more people are replying to your emails? Are people saying good things about you? Are you getting donations where people are like, so-and-so invited me to this event and it was amazing? Um, or so-and-so told me about your organization. Yeah.

Speaker 3 26:40

So good.

Speaker 1 26:41

Yeah.

Speaker 3 26:42

Okay, so as we kind of move to close, if somebody's listening to this and they're like, man, this guy's really smart. I would love to learn more and check out the fundraising academy because I think I have a lot to learn. Tell us a little bit about the fundraising academy and kind of how folks can connect with you and learn more about it.

Speaker 1 26:58

Yeah, the fundraising academy is it's a few things that we rolled up into one. I personally have bought courses in my lifetime that I've never finished, but they sounded like they would help me a lot in the moment.

Speaker 27:12

Sure.

Speaker 1 27:14

So we built a fundraising academy built around community coaching, and yes, there are some courses, but the big key part of the fundraising academy is community and coaching. You're in a cohort with other fundraisers, you get daily support in a community. People are posting their emails, the direct mail letters, people are posting phone scripts, people are asking questions about tax compliance sometimes. It's fundraisers every day sharing questions that they have about their work. And one of our coaches, along with other peers in the community who are helping each other, are active every day in the community. And then we have weekly calls. We have a copywriting call. People are bringing their stuff, we're workshopping it with a copy coach right on the call. We've got a major gift call. People are coming with major gift questions, and our major gift coaches are helping you prepare to make a larger ask. We've got a strategy jam session every week. I lead a lot of those where we're just talking about like, hey, what's going on this quarter? What do you want to achieve? What can we do? A lot of questions, like everyday fundraising questions people have. You just need people. You many of us don't have a team. You need a team. And like nobody goes to school for nonprofit fundraising. So this is like, hey, this is like a bit of a school. You're gonna learn a lot of things, but you're gonna get a team. You're gonna get people. That's the main thing.

Speaker 3 28:37

I love it. And how do we find it? What's the website?

Speaker 1 28:42

People are interested, they can go to fundraisingacademy.com. And right now, my co-founder, Michael Mitchell, is doing like strategy sessions, 30-minute strategy sessions. And him and Caitlin will help you unlock something. You'll walk away with tons of value, and you can learn a little bit more at fundraisingacademy.com. If you like to listen to podcasts, there's also the Build Good Fundraising podcast. If that's your that's your jam, you can check that out too.

Book Recommendations & Closing

Speaker 3 29:10

Absolutely. Okay, so as we close, the question we're we're focused in 2026 here on the Nonprofit Hub Podcast on some some personal and professional development for ourselves, making sure that we take time to invest in ourselves, whether that's some fun reading, some business reading, some organizational reading, whatever the case may be. Tell me in that vein, what's a book that has really impacted you that you would recommend everybody check out?

Speaker 1 29:38

Alright, I'm gonna give you I'm gonna give you two different recommendations. Okay. They're both not fundraising books.

Speaker 3 29:44

Okay, great.

Speaker 1 29:45

And uh one of them has a very awkward title, and the other one is a real curveball.

Speaker 3 29:51

So I can't wait.

Speaker 1 29:53

Number one, awkward title. Uh it's called Getting Naked by uh Patrick Lancioni. Um has nothing to do with actually getting naked. It's it has to do with actually being like a leader that is comfortable being vulnerable, um and leading not by having all the answers, but leading by not being afraid to ask questions. And it's a very easy read. You can read it, it's like an air airplane read, right? Like you can read this in an hour, two hours. And uh the reason these are both leadership books, the reason and I'm a fundraiser, I'm not a leadership coach, anything like that. I just really believe that if we up our leadership, like a lot of fundraising problems are leadership problems, and yes, we can all improve our own leadership, and leadership is about influence. And if we get better at that, our lives will get better, our uh the lives of the people around us will get better. It's good for us personally. So that's one Getting Naked by Patrick Lynch Wayne. The second one is a bit of a curveball. The book is called The Wager, and uh it is it's it's the accounting of the story. I'm I'm I'm really into Arctic exploration and Antarctic exploration, and it's the accounting of a ship that sailed from England down to the southernmost tip and ended up getting stranded. And again, it's a tale of leadership. Uh it's got mutiny in it, it's got warring factions in it, it's got people having to work together to survive. Uh, it's a true story, and it has nothing to do with fundraising. But if you give that a read, I feel like you can't help but walk away being like, my leadership choices have real consequences for people around me. And things can go really right or they can go really wrong just by the choices that I make as a leader.

Speaker 3 31:50

I love it. I have not heard of that one, but I'm gonna go ahead and add it to my list because it sounds intriguing. I do love Patrick Lancioni and his like I he's just so clear. Every book he puts out is just so clear and easy to put into practice.

Speaker 1 32:06

So, yes, that's a great and for those who don't know, they're business fables. Like you're reading a story, you're not reading a business book. Like you're reading a story that's without you knowing it, it's teaching you a framework and helpful lessons.

Speaker 3 32:18

Yeah, yeah, that's great. Well, Mike, thank you so much. I really enjoyed the conversation. I appreciate all the wisdom. Thanks for joining us today.

Speaker 1 32:25

Thanks for having me. And we'll we'll see, I don't know, we'll grab a coffee one of these days again.

Speaker 3 32:29

Yes, that'd be great. This is another episode of the Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast. I'm your host, Megan Speer, and we'll see you next time.