What If Real Leadership Starts With Being Human

We explore the quiet creep of nonprofit burnout and the "dehumanized leadership" patterns that often cause it. Moving beyond standard metrics, this conversation dives into the vital difference between "checking up" on goals versus "checking in" on people, and why the most effective leaders are those willing to start hard conversations without having all the answers. By focusing on psychological safety and vulnerability, we provide a roadmap for rehumanizing mission-driven work and building a workplace culture where high performers can actually thrive long-term.

James Dismond serves as the CEO of MiraSol Health, an organization providing comprehensive medical and social support services. As a seasoned nonprofit leader, James is dedicated to fostering healthy organizational cultures and developing leadership strategies that prioritize employee wellbeing alongside mission success. His expertise in navigating the complexities of mission-driven environments helps leaders move away from "pedestal culture" toward more authentic, sustainable team engagement.

Transcript

Sponsor Message From Firespring

SPEAKER_02 0:00

This episode is sponsored by Firespring. Firespring is a brand experience company that specializes in nonprofits, delivering integrated marketing and websites that do more than look good. From appeals and annual reports to seamless giving experiences, Firespring helps nonprofits turn clicks into real impact. Learn more today at firespring.comslash nonprofit hub. Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast. I'm your host, Megan Speer. Joined today by James Dismond, who's the CEO at Mirisol Health. We're gonna be digging into maybe a different side of health, into a healthy workplace culture. But excited to bring James into the conversation to really speak into that. I think a necessary conversation for a lot of our leaders. So, James, welcome in.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Thanks for having me. Super excited to be here.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Absolutely. So tell us a little bit about yourself and your background that brought us to the conversation today.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Yeah, James Desmond, Marisol Health. I'm the CEO here. A fun fact is that my entire career has been in the nonprofit space. So I can't relate to a lot of the corporate leaders or people who are in recovery from corporate lifestyle. Um, but I I just think that I really love helping people, and every job I've ever had has associated with that. So um that's how I'm in the nonprofit space, and I don't ever foresee myself moving out of it.

Warning Signs Of Nonprofit Burnout

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Hey, me neither. Pretty firmly here. It's great. Very good. So in general, I would say nonprofits are full of people who are trying to make a difference in the world, right? We're taking on some of the largest problems and trying to make a difference, and it is very easy to let that get out of control, right? It is very easy to like lose life balance because the mission is so important or take on more and more and more to the point of burnout, and that nonprofit burnout is real. So let's dig in, right? Let's start talking from that perspective. So I'd love to hear your kind of your thoughts or your experience on are there warning signs if someone's listening right now and going, yeah, that's maybe where we've gotten to, right? That's maybe we're on the borderline of some of my team being burnt out. What are the warning signs as leaders that we need to start looking for ahead of time to say, you know what, time out. We're headed down a dangerous path.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Yeah, I definitely think there are significant warning signs. And just kind of want to kind of highlight first, though, nonprofit workers are traditionally your yes people. You ask their yes, and we keep saying yes because we're doers, we're fixers, we're problem solvers. And that is always one of my key indicators too. When you're in a high need situation and you keep asking the same person because you know they're gonna say yes. And we typically we go to these people and we're like, oh, they're the get it done people, oh, this person will do it. And we never really consider if it's in their scope. And when I say scope, I mean their job description, their daily duties, what they should be doing, what we're paying them to do. And so it's that constant yes person. Um, but there's other warning signs, change in personality, change in, you know, if you have that person that's bubbly, they're always smiling, and suddenly they're not smiling, they're kind of recluding through their office, they're not participating, they're really pulling back. Those are your warning signs that you really need to be paying heavily attention to. I'm a yes person, I have to just acknowledge that I'm a yes person and I can burn myself out really quick. Or and I don't really like the word burnout, more like overwhelm myself really quick. I have to realize that is an attribute that I have. And oftentimes I've had leaders that I know could see it and kept asking me, but never checked in on me to see how I was doing or addressed, hey, Jane, you're doing too much.

unknown 4:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

And so I think it's seeing those warning signs, but then being brave enough to actually actually ask the person about the warning signs that you're seeing.

Acknowledge The Load Without Fixing

SPEAKER_02 4:14

I think that's a really great call out because I I think every person listening just went, uh-huh. Yeah, I've been in that boat where I am at the end of my rope. I don't even know how to ask for help. And I I have to believe that the people around me are also seeing it. So why is it and why isn't anyone helping me? Yeah, I think that's super relatable. If somebody's listening, they're like, Yeah, I can see it in my team. I know they're overwhelmed. I know I see it. I see that, you know, whether it's the change of behavior, change of personality, any of the things that you just mentioned, I just don't know what to do about it.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

Like it feels awkward to bring up the conversation, or maybe we don't we don't have a solution, so we don't want to bring up the conversation. Speak to those leaders for a minute on some things that they could we know when someone's different, and then we stop there. So how do we how do we not stop?

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Here's the thing. I love talking to leaders like this because I've been that leader. Yeah. And we don't want to approach the problem because we don't have a solution for it. You don't need a solution.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

Oh, say that again.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

You don't need a solution. As nonprofit professionals, we want to fix the problem and have it, have the solution laid out, ready to go for the person. A lot of times that's not what the person or your team members needing. Sometimes all we need is acknowledgement. We want you to know that we're carrying a heavy load. And if there's some ways that we can brainstorm together to carry that load together, that's great. That's maybe that's all the solution we need. But in many cases, it's just merely the acknowledgement. Hey, I know you're having a difficult time right now. You know, whatever the services we're providing, they're through the roof. But there comes some positive reinforcement there too. Like in our load, like right now, our business is hitting peak performance. Like, it is an amazing issue and problem to have, but I still have to address it as a problem.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

And then I reinforce it and I say, you know what? Patients are choosing us every single day. That is phenomenal. That's because of what you all are doing as a team. Acknowledge that there's a problem, acknowledge that there's heavy workload. And then ideally, there's going to be some natural conversation and respect that just is naturally gonna pour into your culture, but just acknowledging it to me is so, so important. Many times we just want to kind of shove it to the side and it just stews and get gets so much worse, and then that person feels completely unsupported, and then now we have a bigger issue at hand.

Put The Human Back In Leading

SPEAKER_02 6:48

I wonder too, and I mean, we're gonna put some boundaries around this. It is a safe space here on the podcast. Yeah. Everybody can feel free to just take a breath for a minute. I wonder too, if it's hard sometimes for leaders to acknowledge that it's gotten out of hand because they don't want to look like a failure.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Hundred percent. I call it the blame game, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

We don't want that on our shoulders because we feel like we're failing, or we feel like we have imposter syndrome, like how can I help this person? Um, and I it is so true. I've been there. Sometimes I still get there, right? Sure. We have uh ebbs and flows, but I think it's acknowledging it. Here's the thing I hate the word leadership because to me, there's there's a period after that, or it just stands alone. I love the word leading, it's an action verb, there's something that comes after it. If you acknowledge and talk to your team, you're gonna get the information that you need to be a better leader and to lead, to be leading. If you're having this issue of gosh, I don't have the tools and the resources, ask your team, invest in yourself. I call it paying the price. You have to pay the price of leadership. That's the hard conversations. Have the hard conversations.

SPEAKER_02 8:17

That's so good. That vulnerability is so hard though, right? Because you I, you know, I want to be the leader. I want to be the person that they can rely on. I want to be, I don't want them to look at me as a failure or as weak if I acknowledge, like, hey, I'm feeling this too. You know, it's not just your team, it's probably you. If everybody's burnt out, it is probably you as well. And that takes some pretty radical vulnerability that I feel like we have, and maybe it is the corporate side of culture, but I feel like we've beaten that out of people, right? The leader's gotta be tough, the leader's gotta be strong, the leader can't show weakness, like we hammer home those messages, and I at least in my opinion, it's done such a disservice to leaders as a whole, right? Because then we can't be vulnerable, it's too hard.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Yeah, to me, you know, you're hitting on something that I feel very passionate about. We have dehumanized leading. It's cool.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

Say more about that.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Yeah, dehumanized. We've put this person on a pedestal, they're not allowed to make mistakes, they're not allowed to show emotion. They have to have so many boundaries that then that person who's leading becomes so lonely because they can't cross all these HR boundaries, right? My HR department will probably start cringing a little bit if they listen to this, but I've cried with my team, I've held my team's hands, I've showed up at their houses when they need extra support. I've been at the hospital with them, and I've had those same team members do that to me. It doesn't mean that you can't have professional boundaries, but I've stood in front of our entire company and said, I was wrong. I got this wrong. I'm sorry, but you know what? We went on a limb, we we did a risk, we tried. We put the human back in the leader so that your team knows that you're gonna ebb and flow, we're gonna make mistakes, we're gonna have hard conversations, and that as a CEO, as the leader of whatever part you're leading in your company, you don't have all the answers, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

That's so good. I and I I've talked about this on the podcast before, but I had I was making a career change one time 12, 15 years ago at this point. And the woman that I was working for, who was a senior vice president within the organization, I told her what I was doing. I was leaving to go to this other company, take this role, and it was gonna be more of a senior leader position as well. And she said, Now listen to me, I'm gonna give you the best advice that I can give you. And I, spoiler alert, it was legitimately the worst. So she sat me down and she was like, My reputation in this company, and admittedly, like she was one of the only females in senior leadership at the time. She said, My reputation in this company is that I am the least emotional one in the boardroom. I do not bring those emotions. Everyone else can yell and scream, they can cry, it doesn't matter. I can't because we I can't feed the stereotype that the woman is gonna be the more emotional one. If you're gonna move forward in senior leadership, you have got to get yourself under control that way and not like you just know going in, you have to be the least emotional. And so for a while I took that and really kind of tried to embody it. I was really running with it, and then all of a sudden I realized, you know what, this is really dumb. I like my I am a passionate individual. If I have an opinion, I'm gonna I'm gonna share that. And that's what my team needs me to do. That they need me to fight for them in those rooms as well. But it took a long time to unlearn. And I think those messages have been so ingrained into our culture of like, especially women, you gotta be tough, you gotta be strong, you can't let those emotions get in the way, but they're so helpful, and that's what makes us human. So I really love that call out for bringing the human side back to leadership because we don't nobody deserves to be on a pedestal like that.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

No, and you know, I think it's it's disheartening to hear that you had to unlearn that, but it is true, and actually it's more disheartening that she felt that she had to be that way because that was definitely culture that she was molding to, right? She felt it be emotional in a boardroom that I would say was predominantly men. Yeah, predominantly probably white men.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

We want to get real specific, and so I work in an organization that is 90% female, um, and we had been led by a female for 17 years, and she did a phenomenal job. And one of the first lessons I learned was I had been taught as a leader to take the emotion out of it.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

I had this really bad statement in my first year as CEO that was we're not addressing the emotion. We need to address the business side. And it was stings me to you. Let's just say I learned that really, really quickly with employee examples. And especially in the nonprofit world specifically, like we're driven by our emotional connection to the mission of whatever we're doing. And so when you start not addressing the emotions of your team, you're really dampering everything because mental health, emotion, vulnerability. I mean, we're asking people to give such a big portion of themselves in realms that are highly emotional. So, one, just rephrasing, glad you did unlearn that. Yes. Super sorry you had to.

unknown 13:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

Yeah, nobody take that advice.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Yeah.

Check In Not Check Up

SPEAKER_02 13:59

This episode is sponsored by Firespring, a brand experience company trusted by thousands of nonprofits to amplify their message, strengthen supporter connections, and grow their mission. Firespring delivers nonprofit websites and marketing that do more than look good. From appeals and direct mail to annual reports and seamless online giving, everything is built to tell your story, engage supporters, and make giving easy. The result? Real, measurable impact for your organization. Learn more today at firespring.com slash nonprofit hub. Okay, so I want to maybe shift the gear a little bit um and talk to two different audiences about this. So the first one, let's say someone's listening and they are the leader who is seeing the things, right? We're seeing the signs. We know we've been driving too hard. The world is a mess, and we've been trying to do our best to fix it, but we're just on that edge of burnout. What's your your number one piece of advice for how to turn the tide?

SPEAKER_00 15:17

First is realizing that as leaders, our number one job, like I hear this often, and we had to have a mind shift in my organization. Is I would ask leaders what their job were. What is your job? And they would say the mission of the organization. That is not a job. That's not a job description. No, a leader's job is to take care of the people that they're leading. It's those individuals' jobs to go out and do greater in the world or whatever their your mission is. Like my job as CEO is to drive the mission, yes, but I drive the mission by taking care of my leaders, the people who work with me every single day. And so the best thing to turn that mindset is to acknowledge that you need to lead those people. You need to be checking in on those people. That is different than checking up on people. Checking in.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

Oh, yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

I've been checked up on a lot in my life, right? And none of it helped me. Checking up is when you're like, are you reaching your goals? Are you at your goals? Where are we at? And it's not emotional at all. It's very just, I want an update on where you're at to help us reach these goals. Checking in on someone is really taking the time, setting down, looking at them eye to eye and saying, Hey, how's the work day?

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

How's life?

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

Where are we at and mental capacity here? And then brainstorming on how you can be better together. And I find that to be so just valuable on turning the tide to we're not a team, we're more of a tribe. We're all in this together, no matter where your hierarchy is in the organization, because it does truly take a tribe to drive culture and to drive performance. So recap, check in, not check up.

How Staff Can Ask For Help

SPEAKER_02 17:16

So good. On the flip side, if somebody is maybe the person who should be being checked up or checked in on, right? Because we do have a lot of folks who listen to this podcast who are not necessarily the head of the organization, right? They're not the department head, they're not the team leader, whatever it is. They're just working in nonprofit, working their little tails off, right? If that is, if that person is in that mode, if they are burnt out, if they're feeling frustrated and they're overwhelmed in all of the things, what's the best way for somebody to bring that to leadership's attention and to ask for what they need?

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Absolutely. And you know, I'm definitely not gonna have the answers for everyone. I think you have to really know what's best for you. From an employee who's had to have conversations like this before, one of the best things I ever did was advocate for myself. So if you are questioning whether you should have this conversation, the answer is yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

Because you're already questioning it. Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

And so I definitely think it's very professional to ask for a safe space to have a conversation. Uh, and there's a lot of other factors that we could kind of sidebar about. Um, but go to the person that you feel safe with in the organization that's in leadership. The key is in leadership and say, can I have a difficult conversation with you about some things that I'm feeling personally, professionally, and set the expectation. For me, too, expectation can mean a few different things. I have employees, I have an open door policy, which HR hates, by the way. But when people come in, I like to just have the expectation, hey, we're gonna have a difficult conversation. I'm just dumping. I don't really need you to react. I just need a safe space to get it out and get it in the open. Or I have other employees that are like, I am looking for some feedback, some compassion and accountability. I need something back from what I'm about to dump on you, right? Yeah. And I think setting that accountability and that expectation is super important because sometimes we go into a conversation and we are just wanting to vent, and then we get this constructive feedback back that really hurts. It doesn't add any value when really you are just looking for a safe space to get some things off your chest. But on the other hand, if you vent and you get nothing back, but you are expecting some feedback or or something back, it can be just as harmful. So safe space, have that person that you want to talk to and acknowledge them and set the expectation of what you what you want out of the conversation.

No Sidebars Bring People In

SPEAKER_02 20:01

So good. I'm curious your thoughts because you obviously you're sitting in the the head honcho chair, if you will, right? You're sitting at the top of the organization. Where do you what's your opinion on or how do you handle it when somebody maybe circumvents who would be their boss and comes to you about that instead?

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

What does that look like culturally?

SPEAKER_00 20:24

It happens, it happens everywhere, it's gonna happen time and time again. There's a few things. One, I need to contacts is very important. Why did you feel the need to come around supervisor? But to me, our theme this year is difficult conversations. So if you come to and you're going around your supervisor or around who manages you, I'm gonna be ready to have a difficult conversation with you. I'm gonna set that tone. We need to talk openly about some things because what I don't do is I don't have sidebar conversations about people without them present. Oh, just don't do it.

SPEAKER_02 21:00

Say that again for the people in the back because that talk about like a sign of a healthy culture. There it is, right there.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Yeah, I don't have sidebar conversations about people who are not present because that is really the definition of gossiping. So for me, I want to have open accountability and compassion and accountability with my team. So if they're coming to me, I'm gonna say, okay, we need to pull this person into this conversation because we need to openly talk about this and have a difficult conversation in order to move forward. If you're not willing to do that, then you're being part of the issue. And so this just happened to me not too long ago. And the person actually said, I respectfully request for this individual not to be in this conversation. And I said, as your leader and the leader of this organization, this person will be in this conversation for transparency and for growth. Can you agree to that or not? Now you have to be ready for answers.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

Because it could Lead you down a road that you didn't expect, and that could be transitioning someone out of your organization that you didn't expect. But to me, culture is the greatest sacrifice, and I will always do that.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

I I love that approach because it holds people accountable, right? In a really structured and healthy way.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

It's not we're not letting the gossip run, we're not letting the rumor mill run the organization. But at the same time, people understand the expectations and have a space to bring those complaints or frustrations at the same time. I think that's a really healthy approach that a lot of people could learn from.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

And it can be difficult. And I don't want to simplify it because it is difficult. And it is difficult on the person that is having to initiate those conversations. But to me, I think you have people talk about negative Nancy's, right? Or negative naysayers. I think you have two kinds. You have the negative Nancy's who are just working really, really hard and they're doing a great job. They're just busy. I mean, they are pounding it out. You want those people, those are the people you want to have these conversations with, right? Like let's just work through it. Then you have what I say I call the negative naysayers who are throwing stones and they're hitting your other teammates. And they're causing harm. By having these conversations, you can identify the two. You move forward with your hard workers, the stone throwers, that's when you're gonna know to exit.

Unlearning Bad Leadership Advice

SPEAKER_02 23:32

That's so good. I'm curious, as you have kind of risen through the ranks as a leader, right, through through your career. Are there pieces of advice for leadership that you had to unlearn also?

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Oh my gosh. Yeah, we could be here all day. A few things. I've had some fortunate experiences to have work under some really compassionate leaders, first of all. But I've also had some not so great experiences, and there's been many things that I've had to learn. One, not confronting conflict. I've worked under leaders who would not talk about conflict and they completely avoided it. And I kind of took that on and was like, okay, this is just what you do. But I learned very, very quickly that doesn't get you anywhere. And then I've already said it, but one of the most important ones that I've learned is just being human. I got told a statement early in my career: do not take this advice. And it it's the worst statement I've ever heard. Fake it till you make it. Ugh, I literally cringe. No, do not fake it till you make it.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

I want to know the expectations. I want you to understand me, my expectations, and what we're capable of. And so I had to unlearn being this perfect person on the outside and just really embrace who I am on the inside and what I'm capable of, flaws and and perks alike. So I would say that's the most valuable thing I unlearned was not faking it till I make it.

SPEAKER_02 25:13

That's so good. Something I will always get on a soapbox about my two least favorite phrases are fake it till you make it, and that's the way we've always done it. If I could get rid of two sentences in the English language, it would be those.