Nonprofit Hub Radio
Whether starting a nonprofit or taking an existing cause to the next level, The Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast is about breaking down how nonprofits can grow. Each episode features an interview with a sector star with insight, stories, or ideas that can take your nonprofit from good to excellence. Join host Meghan Speer every week to make your good go further!
Nonprofit Hub Radio
Why Better Systems Cannot Fix Bad Leadership
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In this episode of Nonprofit Hub Radio, leadership coach and author Nick Reich explores why systems and software cannot solve foundational leadership challenges. The discussion delves into the "full circle leader" framework, the critical difference between vision and direction, and how balancing high expectations with deep care—defined as "love with standards"—helps nonprofit teams shift out of burnout and into a sustainable growth zone.
Nick Reich is the CEO of Abundant Empowerment and the author of Every Player Is Bigger Than The Program. With over 25 years of experience spanning school social work, poverty alleviation, global health, and executive coaching, Nick supports nonprofit and corporate leaders in building high-performing teams and human-centered organizational cultures.
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Sponsor Message And Welcome
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SPEAKER_02Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast. I'm your host, Megan Speer, joined today by Nick Reich, who's the CEO at Abundant Empowerment and the author of the new book, Every Player is Bigger Than the Program. Also about to keynote at Coscamp. And I'm so excited to get everybody introduced to Nick before Coscamp just to get you even more excited about the type of content that you can expect at the conference this year. So Nick, welcome and thanks so much for being here.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Megan. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, glad to have you. So tell the audience a little bit about yourself and kind of your background in the nonprofit space that brought us to the conversation
Nick’s Nonprofit Journey And Work
SPEAKER_02today.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So at Abundant Empowerment, we do leadership development, team developments. We really support organizations and their leaders in creating high-performing teams and high-performing cultures. But as you mentioned, my career has spanned lots of different types of nonprofit organizations. I actually started my career as a school social worker at an inner city charter high school here in Indianapolis. I've done poverty-related work, global health work. I've worked in social enterprise that only employed individuals coming out of prison, uh, worked in higher ed philanthropy, and then a few years ago really got into the consulting side and the coaching. So we work with both for-profit and nonprofit organizations, but really supporting the leaders uh that make those organizations tick. So, yeah, very wide range of experience across the nonprofit sector.
SPEAKER_02Very cool. Okay, so I want to kind of dig in a little bit, maybe with a pr a preview of Coscamp, right? Because I and I think it will naturally lead us into a discussion from your book as well.
When Systems Mask Leadership Gaps
SPEAKER_02I think something that I find really interesting about the way that you have described this session and kind of the thing about which you are passionate is this idea that like systems and and and infrastructure can't fix a leadership problem. Right? And I think sometimes we can have a tendency as leaders to want to overcompensate. I'm gonna make a new system, we're gonna now follow this system, and we're gonna add this platform and this software, and everything's gonna be okay when we really have to take a look at ourselves. So let's start the conversation there with what are some of those those elements that you see in nonprofit leaders where you go, you know what, we gotta fix the people problem. This is not a systems issue.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a great point. And I I I love the the question because I I absolutely geek out over systems in general. Yeah. Um but I think one of the things in you and your audience will resonate with this, I think, is you know, I've spent the last 25 years fighting systems, right? I mean, I was in the education system, I've been in the healthcare system, I've been in the criminal justice system. We spend so much time as nonprofit leaders, like fighting these systems. Yeah. And at some point, you you know, I step back and say, you know, we we experience burnout. You know, it just drives us crazy fighting these big, hard, challenging systems every single day. And as I've gotten more involved with, if you've not, you talked about books earlier, Danella Meadows. Um, there's a book around systems, uh, thinking in systems is the name of the book. It's a great kind of starter piece. But one of the things that I see is every individual, these systems are all created by humans, they're created by people. And everyone in the system is influenced and impacted by the system, but they also influence and impact the system at large. So I've come in my old age now of finding all these systems, say the only way to change these systems is one person at a time. It starts with us as
The Full Circle Leader Framework
SPEAKER_00leaders. So one of the things that we talk a lot about to really connect the dots for leaders is what does it mean to be a full circle leader? And it all starts with self-accountability. You talked about we have to look and understand our purpose, what grounds us. You know, I mean, all of these things and everything that comes out of the work that we do really ground ourselves in who we are as a leader, why we show up, the legacy we want to leave, all of these different things. And then we move out to our people. So the second characteristic of a full circle leader is people first.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00You know, that really connects into the book, which creates this playbook for people first leadership. But, you know, we have to understand that everything we, you know, the results that we get is all done by and through people, you know. So we've got to focus on ourselves, then focus on developing our people. And then we're looking at systems orientation. How do these individuals all fit together? What is impacting them inside of our place of business? What's impacting them outside of our place of business? What systems are they interacting with? How is that influencing and impacting how they show up and the work that they do? You know, for bigger organizations, how are our divisions and departments and teams? How are they all operating? We've got to understand these things don't exist in isolation. And then we look at being community-rooted. How are we focused on belonging? How are we focused on the roles that we're playing as part of this larger community? And then we think about impact conscious. So long-term impact, the ripple effects that we're making, the decisions that we're making as leaders. So often we get caught in the tyranny of the moment and we're so focused on this short-termism. So, how do we step back and look at the long-term impact of the decisions that we're making? And then we start to see all of that come together in a way that, you know, really focuses on what we can control as leaders, which is ourselves, how we've invest in our people. And then some of those other things naturally start to take care of themselves. Because otherwise, when we just fight the system all the time, it's often a losing battle. So, what are the things that we can control?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Okay. Anyone who listens to the podcast regularly knows that I phrase a question this way. Because we do, I know, having talked to folks, we have two kind of different audiences that listen to the podcast. And one is kind of that startup nonprofit leader, the founder who's getting things going, maybe in year one. And then we also have a lot of folks who are running organizations that have been going for a while and they're kind of maybe trying to make some culture change, or maybe they're new as the leader to an organization that has been going for a while. So I would love your insight for both groups of people around because I think I think everyone can resonate with what you just said, right? Which is we've got to change the mindset, we've got to look at ourselves. If somebody is again both groups, if somebody is startup, brand new, creating an organization, what are the things that they need to put in place to build that or like to keep maybe to stop it from not happening, right? How do we build a culture where that's the norm? And then on the flip side, if someone is coming into a role or they've maybe they're in a role and experiencing that burnout, what are the steps that they would want to take to flip it around and make a change?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a great
Intentional Leadership For Any Stage
SPEAKER_00question. I think one of the things that I think about as you're saying that is, you know, there's the the one word that I always come back to for any leader, and I was delivering a session recently with you know a hundred for-profit engineer leaders, right? It's the same thing. It is intentionality, right? Okay. We get so caught up in the day-to-day that we are often living and leading from a place of reaction, and we really have to be intentional about what we're doing, why we're doing it, how we're doing it. And so often that gets lost. And any type of leader, and especially a nonprofit leader, I would say you have a responsibility as a leader, as a people manager, to learn, to grow, to really think about getting this right because the decisions that you make are impacting other humans' lives and careers. And it's it's a yeah, I think it's a big deal to be able to do that. I always say when you're a people manager, like congratulations, you are now a household name. People's yes, their spouse, their partner, their children, they sit on the table. Yes, they talk about you. People know you and your name and the decisions that you make. So I would say it's a responsibility that we have to do this well and to try to get it right. But you were talking about, so as I think, through kind of really building these high-performing teams and cultures, again, it's not anti-system. We have to have these systems, we have to corporations, we have to have all these things in place. Yeah, but it's about the people within them. So often we get so processed or systems focused that it puts the priority on the system as opposed to the humans within it. And that's really where we start to get into systems of oppression when we start to value that system more than the humans within it. So I think that's always something to keep in mind as a leader. But I would say start with purpose, your organizations, yours as a leader, your why, your purpose, and then help your people find theirs, right? Because so often we think of, especially in the nonprofit sector, that my purpose and my work have to be the same thing. And it ties this in in a way that can sometimes be unhealthy for nonprofit leaders, right? Yeah. And so it's also an understanding of what are the things that I can help my people find their purpose? And then how do we connect the dots to the mission? Because it doesn't have to be my entire reason for existence is this job. But what are the things that I value as a human? And how do we connect the dots to that day-to-day? And then we think about how do you set the direction? So, as a leader of the organization, you have vision, is one part, but I would say direction and vision are kind of two different things. With direction, you've got to be able to set the vision. Where are we going? But then you also have to be able to communicate how are we going to get there? And the thing that often gets missed with a lot of leaders is, and what is every single member of my team's role in making that happen? So that so often think about vision, and we're this is our you know strategic plan, whatever it is, we're communicating this end result.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_00And maybe we're communicating how we're going to get there, and we've got to have some flexibility in that when things come up, but being crystal clear on every single person on the team, their role in making that happen is often a part that we lose because as leaders, we're used to getting results from ourselves, and now we've got to switch that mindset to be able to get results from our people, and that's a very different thing. And that's again comes back to that intentionality piece.
Sponsor Break And Donor Care
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Every Player Is Bigger Than Program
SPEAKER_02So every player is bigger than the program. Talk to us a little bit about what kind of the premise of the book and what drove you to really have that as your passionate message for leaders.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, as I mentioned, I started as a school social worker at a charter high school as a brand new school. I joined halfway through the second year of the school's existence. It was really cool designed initially for folks who had been unsuccessful at other schools, but a lot of them had maybe been facing expulsion, academic challenges, whatever the case is. So, you know, we wanted to build a basketball program. Uh initially, it was just an after school for kids to have something to do after school, right? And then we say, well, we're going to apply to the IHSAA to be a real high school basketball program. And I grew up in sports, I played a little bit of college basketball. So you always hear coaches say, and even on TV, you still hear it now, no player's bigger than the program. And really what they're saying is, no player's bigger than me, right? I'm the coach, you listen to me. It's just hierarchy, it's this top-down piece. And for me, it was always like every player is bigger than the program. We exist to serve them, not the other way around. Now, part of that was we did not have a program. There was nothing there that was so valuable that, but one of the things that we learned was, you know, investing in and planting these seeds in these humans really allowed us to go farther, faster than we would have otherwise. And now, 15 years ago in March of 2011, that team that had no gym, and we never had a gym, you know, no real sense of history or anything like that. We were the fastest team in Indiana history to ever win a basketball state championship. Wow. So non-existent, no gym, you know, three years competing in the state tournament, we win a state championship. So I've gone down a different path. That was actually the last game I ever coached of high school basketball. And now working with leaders across sectors and around the country, and in some cases around the world, what brought me to the book now was I'm always curious what made that possible? Right? Like, how did we do that? And what have I seen in leaders and organizations around the country that created high-performing teams, created high-performing workplace cultures? And what was the through line that I saw what we did as a basketball team, and what I've seen other organizations and leaders do? So that's really how the book came together. Because I didn't want to tell a 15-year-old basketball story. But as you know, these pieces came together in what I now call the People First Playbook, these six kinds of components that that are talked about through the book, like, okay, this is something that is valuable that I can get out, that I think is helpful. And I would say it's a leadership book through a basketball story. Um I do think there's a lot of value there for the folks that are listening to this to say, well, I'm not a huge basketball fan. You know, I I've had some some feedback that I don't like basketball, I'm not a sports person, but I love the book. So I do think that it is not a basketball book, it's a sure, it's a leadership book. So
Human Capital Over Empty Values
SPEAKER_00I love it.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I love the premise, right, that for an organization to thrive, right? We have to remember that our people are our biggest resource. If the leader's ego gets too big, if the systems get too big, if any of those pieces get out of whack and make us think that those things are more important than the humans who are either working for us or that we're serving, we're on a downward trajectory that is really hard to come back from. So I think it's a great reminder.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I was just this example. So, you know, if if imagine every single person in your organization just quit. Just quit. Every single one quit. Yeah. And what do you have? You have an empty building, you have a lifeless set of platitudes and core values on the wall. But you know, you your brand doesn't breathe. Your people are there investing their energy, their heartbeats, their passions into this work. And again, this is not anti-business, it's not anti-system, it's not anti-process, it is pro-prioritization, right? We are, as you said it perfectly, we are prioritizing our human capital, the humans that make this work as the core to what it is that we do. And I do think that when you invest in your people, then they are going to take you farther, faster than anything you could have imagined by thinking about it in a different way. You can set this goal, we've got a revenue goal, we've got an impact goal, we've got a numbers reached goal, whatever that is. You set that goal and then drive the people is not going to work the same way as just developing the people and building them and building their confidence and skills and empowering them to do the work. You know, you're gonna reach that and beyond, I think, every single time.
Excellence Means Love With Standards
SPEAKER_02So I'm curious your thoughts then, because so often nonprofit leaders have such a heart, it's almost the flip side problem, right? They have such a heart for people, but maybe not the systems or business acumen background to actually like effectively run an organization. So, what in your ideal world, what does that balance look like between I value my people and I value the the people that we're serving, but I also we have to run effectively. Right? And it because I feel like that's a really hard thing to juggle especially in the nonprofit sector, because you're you're serving a lot of times some really vulnerable populations that that do need that dignity and value, and you want to put them first, but we also still have to run it like a business if we want to survive. So, how do you encourage folks to strike that balance? What does that look like?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so so I use this matrix. So excellence is one of the pillars in the playbook. And I talk about what does this look like to create excellence in an organization? Because so often, especially with nonprofit leaders, like you said, the the heart for the people, not only that you serve, but for your employees. So this matrix, I believe excellence is love with standards.
SPEAKER_02Oh, say that again.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, excellence is love with standards.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I like that a lot.
SPEAKER_00We vary, we we look at this. So if if I've got on my my vertical axis, love, my horizontal axis standards. If I have low standards and high love, which is often where, not say often, where we can sometimes find nonprofit leaders. Yes. Because they they you know, you're so focused on that. So high expectations, high accountability, high standards may sometimes get lost. I call that the comfort zone. That's where people can get really, really comfortable, right? Because there's not a lot of standards there, right? We kind of skate along, there's not a lot of accountability, you know. I I so like that's the comfort zone. If I look down at this low standards, low love, I say that's the checkout zone, right? Like your folks are gonna disengage, there's not a lot happening there, you know, nobody's being challenged, nobody's being pushed, there's not a lot of things they they know that you don't care. On the bottom right side, this low love, high standards, that's where burnout happens, right? Burnout isn't too much on the plate, oftentimes. It's this disconnection between what it is that I'm doing, being disconnected from my why. It's also being pushed and pushed and pushed without knowing that this care exists. And then you've got this growth zone, which is high love, high standards. So I always say high expectations. You have to be very clear on what the expectation is, high accountability, you have to be very clear on what happens if you want to support the hell out of your people along the way. And, you know, I would say the next step of that I always say is clear the path, it's enablement. You have to be able to remove the obstacles and barriers to your team's success. So that's a really important part of how we approach this work together. But again, there's high expectations, high accountability. I believe people want to be pushed and challenged when it's done with kindness and respect. And so that's the zone that I always talk with leaders about that can sometimes be challenging for a lot of folks, but especially in the nonprofit sector who want to focus in on this love side, maybe without the standards and the accountability side. So that's where I would start. There's a lot of other things there. Around, you know, fiscal responsibility and a lot of other things that you would want to have for a strong organization, but really from a people perspective, understanding that balance of love and standards, I think is critically important.
Book Release And A Painful Loss
SPEAKER_02Okay, so tell us more about the book itself. When is it coming out? How do we find it? What are you most excited about for it to be in the world?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, September 8th, 2026. The book comes out. So I'm really excited about that. At Cos Camp, we'll have books there. So that'll be great. I think the biggest thing for me, you know, there's a part in the book, Megan, that I think a lot of the folks, especially in at Coscamp and in the nonprofit sector, will resonate with. About six months after the state championship, which was this really high moment, one of the players that I was very close with, I was actually a power of attorney. So I would, you know, very, very close for a very long time. Um, he was shot and killed in October of that year. And I mean, it threw me in a tailspin career-wise, life-wise. Imagine, you know, and I know that a lot of the folks in the nonprofit sector have similar stories and experiences. So one of the things that's been the most valuable to me in both writing the book and going through this, because for so long there was this stain on the memory of winning a state championship and all these great things that you accomplish and connecting it to that very, very painful moment in my life. So for me, there was a cathartic nature to getting to write the book. I get to tell stories. There's probably a couple of stories that I'll I'll share at CauseCamp that include Raymond. And so getting that power back in the book and in the speaking and some of those things uh has been probably the most valuable part of all of this. So I I hope the book resonates. You know, I hope that leaders find it valuable and helpful. And for me, I've already won because I've got to have this experience, I get to have these conversations, and I get to share with leaders. But for me, I've kind of reclaimed this story in a lot of ways, both for us collectively and in the work that we did and the cool things that happened, but also, you know, that memory and and that story with Raymond. So uh I do think that again, there's some some value there for leaders and and things they can implement pretty quickly. But you know, for me, it's just been uh a great opportunity to be able to give my story back.
SPEAKER_02I love it. It's so good. Uh and I'm excited for you to be able to share that with the Coscamp audience too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think it's gonna be really, really moving, and I think everybody will take a lot from it. So I'm excited about your session for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thank you. I'm
Next Reads And Final Thoughts
SPEAKER_00excited too.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so speaking of books, we have dubbed 2026 The Year of Learning here on the Nonprofit Hub Podcast. Uh so my closing question this season for everyone has been what is a book that you would put on everyone's to read list that you would recommend now uh with a caveat, like of course your book, right? Yeah, but what or maybe that is the top one right now. But what else would you, or is there something else that you would put on your everyone should read this book list and tell us a little bit about it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, actually, I was just uh there's a book that I just finished recently called The Next Conversation by Jefferson Fisher. Jefferson Fisher, uh, I think has a quite a substantial following on Instagram and things, but he's a communication, he's an attorney, but really focuses on communication. So I love the book and I love the framing, and I think it's so valuable for leaders. And I think in the nonprofit sector especially, we we can sometimes find this being really nice and apologizing for a lot of things. And so there's a lot of kind of direct kind of communication tips in how we email, how we speak, how we do some of these things that they really help get our message across as leaders. So I think it's a great book. The audio book is great for those that that like that path. But the next conversation by Jefferson Fisher, I would highly recommend.
SPEAKER_02Fantastic. I love it. Well, Nick, this has been a fantastic conversation. I know it's going to be encouraging to a lot of leaders. And I think that that framework is going to be a super powerful tool for a lot of folks to really evaluate kind of where they are and how they move forward to grow their organization and grow their impact. So thank you so much for sharing that with us. I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for having me on, Megan. I can't wait to see everyone at CauseCamp.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. This has been another episode of the Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast with again my guest Nick Reich, who's the CEO and Abundant Empowerment and the author of the book that everyone should check out when it comes out here in September. Every player is bigger than the program. Nick, thanks so much for joining us. We'll see you in a few weeks at CauseCamp. Everyone else have a fantastic week. We'll see you next time on the Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast.